Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
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29-07-2015, 03:17 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 01:51 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 01:42 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Unions cripple an economy. They plunder a business into bankruptcy then everyone loses their jobs.

If you don't like your job, negotiate with your boss, if they don't play ball, then leave.

Do what? Can you back up that claim with any actual data or is this an assumption?

(because unions and the automotive industry are why it boomed, even grad students are organizing into unions and the universities are not becoming crippled, etc, etc)

Unions provide a buffer between employees and companies by having more negotiating power than any single employee, not only for wages but benefits and working conditions, etc.

Unions are about as relevant as the Pony Express...

While both useful in their day - their day has played out....

This from Michigan -- the land of big auto - big unions - and big disappointments in unions....... Go tell the new workers at GM who are under 2 tier, how great unions are -- and find out how good your dental insurance is.................

and don't play prophet - and tell me "the unions will fix it all"......

...

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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29-07-2015, 03:21 PM
Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 03:17 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 01:51 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Do what? Can you back up that claim with any actual data or is this an assumption?

(because unions and the automotive industry are why it boomed, even grad students are organizing into unions and the universities are not becoming crippled, etc, etc)

Unions provide a buffer between employees and companies by having more negotiating power than any single employee, not only for wages but benefits and working conditions, etc.

Unions are about as relevant as the Pony Express...

While both useful in their day - their day has played out....

This from Michigan -- the land of big auto - big unions - and big disappointments in unions....... Go tell the new workers at GM who are under 2 tier, how great unions are -- and find out how good your dental insurance is.................

and don't play prophet - and tell me "the unions will fix it all"......

...

So that's a no?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-07-2015, 03:30 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
You're the one making the outrageous claims -- like religion -- the burden of proof is on YOU ...

Show how unions are HELPING people these days....

(exempt of course are the Union muckety mucks, who make their living by taking part of YOUR paycheck.. they don't count as "people"..)

....

Which leads to the question -- are you the shop steward for your local?????

cuz I'm really getting a whiff of that stank...............

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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29-07-2015, 03:36 PM
Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 03:30 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  You're the one making the outrageous claims -- like religion -- the burden of proof is on YOU ...

Show how unions are HELPING people these days....

(exempt of course are the Union muckety mucks, who make their living by taking part of YOUR paycheck.. they don't count as "people"..)

....

Which leads to the question -- are you the shop steward for your local?????

cuz I'm really getting a whiff of that stank...............

Anyone else doubt he is a troll?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-07-2015, 03:41 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 03:36 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 03:30 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  You're the one making the outrageous claims -- like religion -- the burden of proof is on YOU ...

Show how unions are HELPING people these days....

(exempt of course are the Union muckety mucks, who make their living by taking part of YOUR paycheck.. they don't count as "people"..)

....

Which leads to the question -- are you the shop steward for your local?????

cuz I'm really getting a whiff of that stank...............

Anyone else doubt he is a troll?

Your word rules, huh?????

Somebody questions your bullshit - they're a troll...

funny how that works...


But, you never answer a direct question......

Tell ya what -- do us both a favor -- and put me on "ignore"......

While wasting time can be amusing -- wasting time with YOU is less so...

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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29-07-2015, 03:46 PM
Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 03:41 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 03:36 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Anyone else doubt he is a troll?

Your word rules, huh?????

Somebody questions your bullshit - they're a troll...

funny how that works...


But, you never answer a direct question......

Tell ya what -- do us both a favor -- and put me on "ignore"......

While wasting time can be amusing -- wasting time with YOU is less so...

Look, I'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong. Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-07-2015, 03:46 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 01:51 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 01:42 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Unions cripple an economy. They plunder a business into bankruptcy then everyone loses their jobs.

If you don't like your job, negotiate with your boss, if they don't play ball, then leave.

Do what? Can you back up that claim with any actual data or is this an assumption?
If you are unaware of the issues of unions then the internet is a great source of information. Below are a couple of my thoughts, but if you want real fact then look them up online.

I've got a friend that worked in a heavily unionised company.
They had stop works all the time. Once, some guy fixed his own PC, it was a trivial issue, most people could have done it. The guy took the initiative and rather than sit there being unproductive, he fixed his machine and carried on working. The problem was that the union bosses didn't like it. They claimed that he was taking someone else's job.
Rather than bring this up at a scheduled incident meeting with the company, they decided to get all union members to "down tools" shutting the plant down for several hours so that they could "negotiate" a deal with the company.
Ridiculous huh?

Before The Hobbit started production in NZ, the NZ unions joined forces with Aussie Unions and tried their hardest to get their filthy hands on the NZ film industry. The impact would have been catastrophic, NZ would no longer have a film industry had they succeeded.
Their demand was that the extras (the untalented people whom dress up in a hobbit or orc suit and stand around in the background) should be getting profit share. Their reasoning was that the films were going to make a lot of money and it would only be fair to share that around.
It shows that the unions have no concept of economics and that they are willing to stoop to blackmail, cornering the market on "extras" and withold those services uless their unreasonable demands are met.
They don't understand that the director, script writers, the financial backers, the main actors get the money because they either have hard to find skills, are in an irreplacable position or have taken great financial risk. They seem to have a socialist view of wanting to spread the weath irregardless of skills, effort or risk. They don't take a long term view, they are happy to kill an industry, they are happy to bankrupt a company. The union bosses just then move onto their next target hoping that they can use their proven track record of being able to ruin a business as leverage to blackmail their next target.

(29-07-2015 01:51 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Unions provide a buffer between employees and companies by having more negotiating power than any single employee, not only for wages but benefits and working conditions, etc.
If a company doesn't pay well or gives rubbish working conditions, then don't work for them. Employees can easily quit, an employer has a tremendous amount of red tape to go through to fire staff.
If your argument is that work is hard to find, then you must realise that it is your responsibility to upskill yourself, to make yourself current and marketable. This isn't your employers problem. If you don't want your job and there are 5 other people that would love the opportunity to compete for your job "as is" then why should you demand more from your employer?
Some people tend to think businesses are cash cows. They tend to think that CEOs and companies are greedy rather than realise that the value of unskilled labour is low while supply is high.
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29-07-2015, 04:02 PM
Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 03:46 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 01:51 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Do what? Can you back up that claim with any actual data or is this an assumption?
If you are unaware of the issues of unions then the internet is a great source of information. Below are a couple of my thoughts, but if you want real fact then look them up online.

I've got a friend that worked in a heavily unionised company.
They had stop works all the time. Once, some guy fixed his own PC, it was a trivial issue, most people could have done it. The guy took the initiative and rather than sit there being unproductive, he fixed his machine and carried on working. The problem was that the union bosses didn't like it. They claimed that he was taking someone else's job.
Rather than bring this up at a scheduled incident meeting with the company, they decided to get all union members to "down tools" shutting the plant down for several hours so that they could "negotiate" a deal with the company.
Ridiculous huh?

Before The Hobbit started production in NZ, the NZ unions joined forces with Aussie Unions and tried their hardest to get their filthy hands on the NZ film industry. The impact would have been catastrophic, NZ would no longer have a film industry had they succeeded.
Their demand was that the extras (the untalented people whom dress up in a hobbit or orc suit and stand around in the background) should be getting profit share. Their reasoning was that the films were going to make a lot of money and it would only be fair to share that around.
It shows that the unions have no concept of economics and that they are willing to stoop to blackmail, cornering the market on "extras" and withold those services uless their unreasonable demands are met.
They don't understand that the director, script writers, the financial backers, the main actors get the money because they either have hard to find skills, are in an irreplacable position or have taken great financial risk. They seem to have a socialist view of wanting to spread the weath irregardless of skills, effort or risk. They don't take a long term view, they are happy to kill an industry, they are happy to bankrupt a company. The union bosses just then move onto their next target hoping that they can use their proven track record of being able to ruin a business as leverage to blackmail their next target.

(29-07-2015 01:51 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Unions provide a buffer between employees and companies by having more negotiating power than any single employee, not only for wages but benefits and working conditions, etc.
If a company doesn't pay well or gives rubbish working conditions, then don't work for them. Employees can easily quit, an employer has a tremendous amount of red tape to go through to fire staff.
If your argument is that work is hard to find, then you must realise that it is your responsibility to upskill yourself, to make yourself current and marketable. This isn't your employers problem. If you don't want your job and there are 5 other people that would love the opportunity to compete for your job "as is" then why should you demand more from your employer?
Some people tend to think businesses are cash cows. They tend to think that CEOs and companies are greedy rather than realise that the value of unskilled labour is low while supply is high.

Yeah, I've looked up info on unions and I've never encountered ANYTHING that corroborates your claim. In fact, I've found only information that is more typically the exact opposite.

And no, I'm NOT saying that unions fix everything nor am I saying that there don't become drawbacks for some employees, but I've never seen a situation where the costs outweighed the benefits.

Your friends takes initiative, great. Good for him. Nothing about that story indicates that unions are bad. At best, it demonstrates that sometimes unions have procedures that don't always work as they may be intended or cause unintended consequences. In reality, those procedures are often in place to help protect employees from being exploited or overworked.

As for the Hobbit example, the fact that some unions do bad things, doesn't mean all unions do or that all unions are bad. You're argument in this case would be the equivalent of "the Chinese government really screws it's people over by controlling so much of their lives while having such lax environmental policies. See? Governments are all bad."

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-07-2015, 04:07 PM
Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
And you're also assuming that I think companies are "cash cows." I don't. I understand businesses are there to make money. But doing so through exploitation or through paying employees so little that taxpayers end up paying for their employees to be able to survive, is unethical.

And as for "upskilling" one's self and finding other jobs in the U.S. if you are a part of the job market in the lower brackets, it isn't that easy. At all.

Look up the studies on upward mobility out of Harvard. The single biggest predictor of social status at adulthood, is the social status of your parents and that upward mobility in the U.S. isn't very upward.

The reality is that when you're at the bottom in this country, you tend to stay there thanks to bad social and economic policies and corporations exploiting workers and tax payers to increase profit.

I'm all for businesses turning a profit, but not at taxpayer expense, the expense of the environment, or at the expense of their workers.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-07-2015, 04:13 PM
Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
I'll give you examples for unions for graduate students.

Universities often like to take on foreign graduate students, especially if an advisor is of a specific ethnicity and finds communication easier with those who speak the same language they do. But these students very often are overworked with the constant threat of being dismissed. Requiring these students to put it more time in the lab than they should be or are paid for. And of course, what power do those students have? Precisely none. And they'll be sent back to their home countries. They can't tell the professors no, because it is quite literally as easy as saying "you are done" and the professor or P.I. gets rid of them and brings in another student.

The graduate students at UConn just unionized and over the course of the last year, they've negotiated a pay raise, reduction in fee bill, reduction in parking permit costs, improved healthcare, and now provide any students being overworked with an option that isn't being screwed or kicked out.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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