Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
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29-07-2015, 05:24 PM
Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 05:22 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 04:16 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You've read this thread and still think that?


Without unions we'd be back to patrians and plebs before you could say slave. Look at the world. Not your individual country. I find your views narrow, naive, over confident and disrespectul of your competitors. America is being surpassed by better educated people in Europe and Asia. Your education system even has ID. You need unions to support a lifestyle. Think of it like climate and weather. The former sustains. The latter gives a nice weekend.

So, you admire obl because you think he's direct (but not a troll) but don't like me being direct?

Hold on, I'll fine the fucks I give. Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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29-07-2015, 05:30 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 04:07 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I understand businesses are there to make money. But doing so through exploitation or through paying employees so little that taxpayers end up paying for their employees to be able to survive, is unethical.
I don't understand this mentality and I don't care for your opinion on what is or what isn't ethical.

A business has a purpose of making money.
A business requires employees. A business will pay what they deem employees to be worth to that business. The cost of labour is based on supply and demand, it has nothing to do with the living costs of employees. The living costs are upto the people themselves to sort out, it isn't the business' problem.
If you are willing to do a menial job for $10 per hour and someone else is willing to do it for $8 per hour then why should I emply you? Why would it be more ethical to employ you than that other fellow who is happy to work for $8 per hour? Why do you expect preferencial treatment?


(29-07-2015 04:07 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And as for "upskilling" one's self and finding other jobs in the U.S. if you are a part of the job market in the lower brackets, it isn't that easy. At all.
I never said it was easy.
(29-07-2015 04:07 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Look up the studies on upward mobility out of Harvard. The single biggest predictor of social status at adulthood, is the social status of your parents and that upward mobility in the U.S. isn't very upward.
I don't know a lot about US. I do percieve that they have an expensive and elitist education system where only the rich can go to the "best" universities and then that gives them first dibs at the high paid jobs.
(29-07-2015 04:07 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The reality is that when you're at the bottom in this country, you tend to stay there thanks to bad social and economic policies and corporations exploiting workers and tax payers to increase profit.
Nah, corporations exploiting workers is a cop out.
If you are worth minimum wage then that is what you are worth. You get paid what you are worth. If you go get yourself educated, work hard etc then that will open up opportunities for you.
(29-07-2015 04:07 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I'm all for businesses turning a profit, but not at taxpayer expense, the expense of the environment, or at the expense of their workers.
If the workers don't deem it suitable to work at the business then they don't have to.
I'm not sure hwo you deem a successful business being a burdon on the tax payer.
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29-07-2015, 05:34 PM
Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 05:30 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 04:07 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I understand businesses are there to make money. But doing so through exploitation or through paying employees so little that taxpayers end up paying for their employees to be able to survive, is unethical.
I don't understand this mentality and I don't care for your opinion on what is or what isn't ethical.

A business has a purpose of making money.
A business requires employees. A business will pay what they deem employees to be worth to that business. The cost of labour is based on supply and demand, it has nothing to do with the living costs of employees. The living costs are upto the people themselves to sort out, it isn't the business' problem.
If you are willing to do a menial job for $10 per hour and someone else is willing to do it for $8 per hour then why should I emply you? Why would it be more ethical to employ you than that other fellow who is happy to work for $8 per hour? Why do you expect preferencial treatment?


(29-07-2015 04:07 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And as for "upskilling" one's self and finding other jobs in the U.S. if you are a part of the job market in the lower brackets, it isn't that easy. At all.
I never said it was easy.
(29-07-2015 04:07 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Look up the studies on upward mobility out of Harvard. The single biggest predictor of social status at adulthood, is the social status of your parents and that upward mobility in the U.S. isn't very upward.
I don't know a lot about US. I do percieve that they have an expensive and elitist education system where only the rich can go to the "best" universities and then that gives them first dibs at the high paid jobs.
(29-07-2015 04:07 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The reality is that when you're at the bottom in this country, you tend to stay there thanks to bad social and economic policies and corporations exploiting workers and tax payers to increase profit.
Nah, corporations exploiting workers is a cop out.
If you are worth minimum wage then that is what you are worth. You get paid what you are worth. If you go get yourself educated, work hard etc then that will open up opportunities for you.
(29-07-2015 04:07 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I'm all for businesses turning a profit, but not at taxpayer expense, the expense of the environment, or at the expense of their workers.
If the workers don't deem it suitable to work at the business then they don't have to.
I'm not sure hwo you deem a successful business being a burdon on the tax payer.

A business (out to maximize profits) will pay employees the bare minimum it can that allows them to keep churning out profits.

And workers don't always have that much choice to just leave if they don't like the employer or working conditions or pay. Especially if the alternatives are no better or if it means having the money to move somewhere else.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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29-07-2015, 05:38 PM
Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
As for successful businesses being a burden. It's pretty simple and I've already explained it, but I'll do it again.

Some businesses (like wal-mart for instance) pay employees so little that they still qualify for things like food stamps (which their employees spend at....wal-Mart). So instead of their employees livelihood (which they should care about if they want employees to be able to show up and work) being their burden by paying them a living wage, the taxpayer subsidizes that family's income through food stamps, etc

It's true corporate welfare. Especially when the aforementioned corporation uses tax breaks and loopholes to pay less in taxes (or in some cases, get tax rebates where the government gives them money). So who foots most of the tax bill for the welfare programs? Not the rich or the corporations. Who does that leave?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-07-2015, 05:44 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 05:24 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 05:22 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Without unions we'd be back to patrians and plebs before you could say slave. Look at the world. Not your individual country. I find your views narrow, naive, over confident and disrespectul of your competitors. America is being surpassed by better educated people in Europe and Asia. Your education system even has ID. You need unions to support a lifestyle. Think of it like climate and weather. The former sustains. The latter gives a nice weekend.

So, you admire obl because you think he's direct (but not a troll) but don't like me being direct?
Hold on, I'll fine the fucks I give. Drinking Beverage
Interesting display of character there mate. I joint the thread because you call a guys who is not a troll. Not even close.

I disagree.and you then ask “even though you read the thread? An attack on my intelligence mind you.

I then suggest you. take a world view rather than the narrow view I believe you. have and are not really seeing the new world. Although here I extrapolate a little. My attack back. Yeah me!

You then throw a tantrum.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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29-07-2015, 05:48 PM
Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 05:44 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 05:24 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  So, you admire obl because you think he's direct (but not a troll) but don't like me being direct?
Hold on, I'll fine the fucks I give. Drinking Beverage
Interesting display of character there mate. I joint the thread because you call a guys who is not a troll. Not even close.

I disagree.and you then ask “even though you read the thread? An attack on my intelligence mind you.

I then suggest you. take a world view rather than the narrow view I believe you. have and are not really seeing the new world. Although here I extrapolate a little. My attack back. Yeah me!

You then throw a tantrum.

I'm so confused. You think my character flawed for (something) but look at things obl posts that are presumably something to admire, and come to the exact opposite conclusion?

Also, you've an odd idea of a tantrum.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-07-2015, 05:57 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
Mate I am unsure but reckon you may be a theist. Am I wrong? Off topić I know but please give me the time?

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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29-07-2015, 06:06 PM
Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 05:57 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Mate I am unsure but reckon you may be a theist. Am I wrong? Off topić I know but please give me the time?

What are you talking about? My comparison of when obl plugged his ears and said it didn't matter what he was being shown because he'd never believe it while throwing out a straw man?

Look, your opinion of me is not something o particularly care about one way or the other. If you feel the need to try and extrapolate that opinion into a comparison of me with a theist, go ahead. But you haven't asked me if I have always been a pro-Union and pro-minimum wage kinda guy. In fact, I grew up diametrically opposed to those ideas and maintained them until a few years ago. Once I started looking in more detail (for unions because the grad students unionized and for the minimum wage when I started trying to understand things like upward mobility social issues like poverty), I couldn't reconcile the right-wing rhetoric of "unions are bad" and "minimum wage will kill the economy and drive companies to ruin or make them leave the country."

But if it makes you feel better, go ahead. I'll read it.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-07-2015, 06:06 PM
Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
You can send it in a pm if you don't want to clutter the thread.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-07-2015, 06:07 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 05:06 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 05:04 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I do. I'm suspicious of unions. They had their salad days, but unless we're talking about industries like mining, they've outlived most of their utility. Look at how union health-care benefits bankrupted GM here in America, saddling a company with backbreaking obligations.

There are certainly places where unionization is appropriate, but don't for a moment think that they are utterly beneficent. There's a very fine line between workers' benefits and cutting it open to get the golden egg right now. And too often, unions overstep the line.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the disappearance of the middle class corresponds to the reduction in unionization rates.

And I'm not saying all jobs and places of employment need unions, but low wage workers seem to need them since no one else wants to fight for them.

Generally speaking, I think unions are at their best not in wage negotiations, where short-sightedness seems more prevalent, but in matters of worker safety and injury compensation. It's a sad fact that many jobs pay exactly what they're worth, and in those jobs, unions can't add much value to employer/employee relations.
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