Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
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29-07-2015, 06:10 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 05:34 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 05:30 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I don't understand this mentality and I don't care for your opinion on what is or what isn't ethical.

A business has a purpose of making money.
A business requires employees. A business will pay what they deem employees to be worth to that business. The cost of labour is based on supply and demand, it has nothing to do with the living costs of employees. The living costs are upto the people themselves to sort out, it isn't the business' problem.
If you are willing to do a menial job for $10 per hour and someone else is willing to do it for $8 per hour then why should I emply you? Why would it be more ethical to employ you than that other fellow who is happy to work for $8 per hour? Why do you expect preferencial treatment?


I never said it was easy.
I don't know a lot about US. I do percieve that they have an expensive and elitist education system where only the rich can go to the "best" universities and then that gives them first dibs at the high paid jobs.
Nah, corporations exploiting workers is a cop out.
If you are worth minimum wage then that is what you are worth. You get paid what you are worth. If you go get yourself educated, work hard etc then that will open up opportunities for you.
If the workers don't deem it suitable to work at the business then they don't have to.
I'm not sure hwo you deem a successful business being a burdon on the tax payer.

A business (out to maximize profits) will pay employees the bare minimum it can that allows them to keep churning out profits.

And workers don't always have that much choice to just leave if they don't like the employer or working conditions or pay. Especially if the alternatives are no better or if it means having the money to move somewhere else.

Now now, you can't chew Stevil out because not all unions are the same and than turn around and blatantly umbrella all businesses as the same...
You're better than that.
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29-07-2015, 06:11 PM
Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 06:07 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 05:06 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I don't think it's a coincidence that the disappearance of the middle class corresponds to the reduction in unionization rates.

And I'm not saying all jobs and places of employment need unions, but low wage workers seem to need them since no one else wants to fight for them.

Generally speaking, I think unions are at their best not in wage negotiations, where short-sightedness seems more prevalent, but in matters of worker safety and injury compensation. It's a sad fact that many jobs pay exactly what they're worth, and in those jobs, unions can't add much value to employer/employee relations.

That doesn't mean that corporations are paying them a fair wage. In a climate of record-breaking profits, I don't buy the argument that companies can't afford to pay their employees more. They can adjust prices and help cover cost. If gladly pay a little more here and there if it helped out with employee wages.

And the basics of the employee/employer relationship all boil down to money. Employer wants profit, employee wants fair compensation. For decades the trickle down, low wage, anti-Union, pro-employer idea has slowly chipped away at the middle class while the pay at the top sky rocketed. It hasn't worked for our economy or the middle class. It's a slow return to slave wages.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-07-2015, 06:14 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 05:34 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  A business (out to maximize profits) will pay employees the bare minimum it can that allows them to keep churning out profits.
Exactly what a business is expected to do. They aren't a charity.
(29-07-2015 05:34 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And workers don't always have that much choice to just leave if they don't like the employer or working conditions or pay. Especially if the alternatives are no better or if it means having the money to move somewhere else.
Then it appears that they are lucky to have the job that they have. Be thankful for businesses rather than demanding more.
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29-07-2015, 06:17 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 05:19 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The purpose of bringing up unions is in part because of how they can help with base pay and help keep wages in line with inflation through negotiation.

If you don't like them, fine. But give them credit for the 5 day work week. Paid time off. Safe working conditions. Etc

They've certainly helped workers. The question is, since those improvements in conditions are now codified in law, how relevant are they?
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29-07-2015, 06:17 PM
Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 06:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 05:34 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  A business (out to maximize profits) will pay employees the bare minimum it can that allows them to keep churning out profits.
Exactly what a business is expected to do. They aren't a charity.
(29-07-2015 05:34 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And workers don't always have that much choice to just leave if they don't like the employer or working conditions or pay. Especially if the alternatives are no better or if it means having the money to move somewhere else.
Then it appears that they are lucky to have the job that they have. Be thankful for businesses rather than demanding more.

If you agree that a company is out to maximize profits by paying as little as they can, then you can't believe they pay a fair wage or a wage that the employee is actually worth. Because companies don't look at pay for employees based on their worth, they look at it as their burden.

They're lucky to have their job. Yeah, they should go and kiss their boots. I'm sure people said the same thing about slaves being grateful to their masters. "They should be grateful they aren't in that savage country and have a roof over their head and food in their mouths!!!" Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-07-2015, 06:18 PM
Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 06:17 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 05:19 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The purpose of bringing up unions is in part because of how they can help with base pay and help keep wages in line with inflation through negotiation.

If you don't like them, fine. But give them credit for the 5 day work week. Paid time off. Safe working conditions. Etc

They've certainly helped workers. The question is, since those improvements in conditions are now codified in law, how relevant are they?

Because companies continue to try and repeal or overwrite those laws and regulations. In fact, a huge part of the right's platform centers around deregulation.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-07-2015, 06:36 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 05:38 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Some businesses (like wal-mart for instance) pay employees so little that they still qualify for things like food stamps (which their employees spend at....wal-Mart). So instead of their employees livelihood (which they should care about if they want employees to be able to show up and work) being their burden by paying them a living wage, the taxpayer subsidizes that family's income through food stamps, etc
But if Walmart didn't exist as a business those people would have no jobs and the full living costs would be funded by the government.
It seems to me that the tax payers and the employees are better off because of walmart, not to mention the value that walmart provides by the goods and services that they sell on the market.
The key here is that you consider it the businesses obligation/responsibility to pay for it's employees living expenses where as I see it that demand and supply dictate the worth of the employees services. To me it is irrelevant (to the business) if the employees wages fail to cover their living expenses.

(29-07-2015 05:38 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Especially when the aforementioned corporation uses tax breaks and loopholes to pay less in taxes (or in some cases, get tax rebates where the government gives them money). So who foots most of the tax bill for the welfare programs? Not the rich or the corporations. Who does that leave?
I don't see why the corporations should pay for welfare programs. Seems like a government issue/concern to me.
If government give tax breaks one would hope that is because they see the benefit the corporation brings i.e. jobs and spending in the local economy, perhaps even generating revenue from exporting goods overseas.
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29-07-2015, 06:40 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 06:17 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  If you agree that a company is out to maximize profits by paying as little as they can, then you can't believe they pay a fair wage or a wage that the employee is actually worth.
An employee is worth what they are willing to work for, this seems fair.
Why would a business pay more than that? Why do you assume they are a charity?
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29-07-2015, 06:48 PM
Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
You're like a capitalist on steroids. I don't want to live in a world that is so capricious where those at the top get to treat everyone else the way they want or give them the scraps off of their plate.

Americans aren't better off with companies that dodge taxes, ship jobs overseas, park money in offshore tax havens, lobby to write laws with loopholes to exploit, or pay people so little that they have no options.

If they could pay them any less, they would. If they could not pay them at all, they would. Is that a world you want to live in? A world where the corporations and the rich decide every one else's worth?

Chris Rock said it pretty well: "I used to work at McDonald's making minimum wage. You know what that means when someone pays you minimum wage? You know what your boss was trying to say? "Hey if I could pay you less, I would, but it's against the law."

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-07-2015, 06:57 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
Actually if you recall, you accused olb of trolling. I was not in the thread. I feel that perhaps you owe us in turn? As for my opinon of you, I would vallis it, perhaps I see you as a bit insular. Perhaps asleep at the wheel as the world develops.

I'm of course from another country and do not share the same views. It is no longer the 1960's and America has on some ways become complacent. If it is not more cwreful there will be an underclass on the level of Brasil.

And for what it is worth, don't call an opponent a troll because you cannot defeat historija argument. Save that for the real trolls.



(29-07-2015 06:06 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 05:57 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Mate I am unsure but reckon you may be a theist. Am I wrong? Off topić I know but please give me the time?

What are you talking about? My comparison of when obl plugged his ears and said it didn't matter what he was being shown because he'd never believe it while throwing out a straw man?

Look, your opinion of me is not something o particularly care about one way or the other. If you feel the need to try and extrapolate that opinion into a comparison of me with a theist, go ahead. But you haven't asked me if I have always been a pro-Union and pro-minimum wage kinda guy. In fact, I grew up diametrically opposed to those ideas and maintained them until a few years ago. Once I started looking in more detail (for unions because the grad students unionized and for the minimum wage when I started trying to understand things like upward mobility social issues like poverty), I couldn't reconcile the right-wing rhetoric of "unions are bad" and "minimum wage will kill the economy and drive companies to ruin or make them leave the country."

But if it makes you feel better, go ahead. I'll read it.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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