Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
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30-07-2015, 12:47 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 05:38 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  As for successful businesses being a burden. It's pretty simple and I've already explained it, but I'll do it again.

Some businesses (like wal-mart for instance) pay employees so little that they still qualify for things like food stamps (which their employees spend at....wal-Mart). So instead of their employees livelihood (which they should care about if they want employees to be able to show up and work) being their burden by paying them a living wage, the taxpayer subsidizes that family's income through food stamps, etc

It's true corporate welfare. Especially when the aforementioned corporation uses tax breaks and loopholes to pay less in taxes (or in some cases, get tax rebates where the government gives them money). So who foots most of the tax bill for the welfare programs? Not the rich or the corporations. Who does that leave?

It is not Walmart's responsibility to insure the welfare of its employees. You just want to force that responsibility on Walmart....but claiming it is Walmart's responsibility doesn't make it so. Walmart was created to sell goods and services and turn a profit. It wasn't created to be the governments welfare program.
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30-07-2015, 12:50 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 06:11 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 06:07 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Generally speaking, I think unions are at their best not in wage negotiations, where short-sightedness seems more prevalent, but in matters of worker safety and injury compensation. It's a sad fact that many jobs pay exactly what they're worth, and in those jobs, unions can't add much value to employer/employee relations.

That doesn't mean that corporations are paying them a fair wage. In a climate of record-breaking profits, I don't buy the argument that companies can't afford to pay their employees more. They can adjust prices and help cover cost. If gladly pay a little more here and there if it helped out with employee wages.

Profits are high because employers are using more automation and less labor. By raising the minimum wage you are creating an even greater incentive for producers to turn to automation.
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30-07-2015, 01:02 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 10:19 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 10:17 AM)TheBear Wrote:  You get no disagreement from me there.

Then you should support a transition towards minimum wage being closer to a living wage. That provides an employment market where everyone has more choices for where to work and more leverage for better pay.

Minimum wage prices people out of the market so it doesn't provide an employment market where everyone has more choices to work. The Davis-Bacon Act essentially imposed a minimum wage and priced the blacks out of the labor market decreasing their employment opportunities.
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30-07-2015, 01:07 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 09:40 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Revs talked about how most of the profits businesses take out of the lil guy's pocket are never seen again, and I was wondering if something could be done about that. Nothing on an individual basis, but perhaps being obligated by law to do something for the community from which they vampirically feed (I couldn't help that last). Like paying for a portion of the maintenance on the infrastructure that their employees utilize to travel between work and home. Anything to get just a little of that money back where it came from. Or am I pipe dreaming for realz? Laugh out load

You are pipe dreaming if you think rich people have vaults of money like Scrooge McDuck. Profits go back into the economy and benefit everyone. Walmart takes their profits and opens more stores for instance.
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30-07-2015, 01:20 AM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2015 09:53 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(30-07-2015 12:47 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  It is not Walmart's responsibility to insure the welfare of its employees. You just want to force that responsibility on Walmart....but claiming it is Walmart's responsibility doesn't make it so. Walmart was created to sell goods and services and turn a profit. It wasn't created to be the governments welfare program.

And likewise, the government didn't install the food-stamp program in order to enable Walmart and other employers to underpay their workers. When you look at the calls those employees make upon government subsidies in one form or another, it becomes clear that the real beneficiary of the subsidy is the employer, who is relieved of the obligation to pay a decent wage through taxpayer funds.

There's many good points on both sides of this discussion. Waving away points with ideological flourishes doesn't advance the discussion.
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30-07-2015, 01:24 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(30-07-2015 01:07 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 09:40 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Revs talked about how most of the profits businesses take out of the lil guy's pocket are never seen again, and I was wondering if something could be done about that. Nothing on an individual basis, but perhaps being obligated by law to do something for the community from which they vampirically feed (I couldn't help that last). Like paying for a portion of the maintenance on the infrastructure that their employees utilize to travel between work and home. Anything to get just a little of that money back where it came from. Or am I pipe dreaming for realz? Laugh out load

You are pipe dreaming if you think rich people have vaults of money like Scrooge McDuck. Profits go back into the economy and benefit everyone. Walmart takes their profits and opens more stores for instance.

Right...they open stores, snuff out their competition and destroy small business leaving the working class with limited options for where to work and purchase their goods, and with limited options for work, they can get away with paying their employees bottom dollar. That's not even taking into account their lobbyists getting politicians to give them lovely little tax loopholes.


I'm well acquainted with working for a monopoly - fuck the Huntsville Hospital Health system. They keep nursing perpetually short staffed, driving up competition for nurses to get a job and allowing them to pay them piss poor wages. They tell their nurses they don't have the funds to pay them any better, that they should be thankful they should even have a job (in a lovely letter read in a morning shift huddle), and keep them desperate to keep their jobs because there are many more willing to take their place... Then they go and keep buying more regional hospitals, build pretty landscaping on the grounds, give the CEO a raise when laying off housekeeping staff and contemplating cutting nurse wages... They have no incentive to pay their nurses a decent wage, why would they? They don't have any competition.

"If there's a single thing that life teaches us, it's that wishing doesn't make it so." - Lev Grossman
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30-07-2015, 01:25 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(30-07-2015 01:20 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(30-07-2015 12:47 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  It is not Walmart's responsibility to insure the welfare of its employees. You just want to force that responsibility on Walmart....but claiming it is Walmart's responsibility doesn't make it so. Walmart was created to sell goods and services and turn a profit. It wasn't created to be the governments welfare program.

And likewise, the government didn't install the food-stamp program in order to enable Walmart and other employers to underpay their workers. When you look at the calls those employees make upon government subsidies in one form or another, it becomes clear that the real beneficiary of the subsidy is the employer, who is relieved of the obligation to pay a decent wage through taxpayer funds.

There's many good points on both sides of this discussion. Waving away points withideological flourishes doesn't advance the discussion.

I suspect that if you eliminated the food stamp program, Walmart would still pay minimum wage. In fact that would help Walmart as higher caliber but now more desperate people would be seeking second jobs to make their nut.

No evidence has ever been shown by the left that food stamp programs and such allow Walmart to pay less as they often claim.
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30-07-2015, 01:32 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(30-07-2015 01:24 AM)Nurse Wrote:  
(30-07-2015 01:07 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  You are pipe dreaming if you think rich people have vaults of money like Scrooge McDuck. Profits go back into the economy and benefit everyone. Walmart takes their profits and opens more stores for instance.

Right...they open stores, snuff out their competition and destroy small business leaving the working class with limited options for where to work and purchase their goods, and with limited options for work, they can get away with paying their employees bottom dollar. That's not even taking into account their lobbyists getting politicians to give them lovely little tax loopholes.


I'm well acquainted with working for a monopoly - fuck the Huntsville Hospital Health system. They keep nursing perpetually short staffed, driving up competition for nurses to get a job and allowing them to pay them piss poor wages. They tell their nurses they don't have the funds to pay them any better, that they should be thankful they should even have a job (in a lovely letter read in a morning shift huddle), and keep them desperate to keep their jobs because there are many more willing to take their place... Then they go and keep buying more regional hospitals, build pretty landscaping on the grounds, give the CEO a raise when laying off housekeeping staff and contemplating cutting nurse wages... They have no incentive to pay their nurses a decent wage, why would they? They don't have any competition.

Walmart has plenty of competition, that is why their prices are so low. It is certainly not a monopoly. With the boon in online retailers like amazon, Walmart is facing more competition that ever.

A big problem with health care is barrier to entry. You seem like a smart and competent nurse. Why can't you open your own practice? You should be able too as far as I am concerned. Do you have the expertise of a doctor? No, but most of the time I don't need the expertise of a doctor when getting my health care.
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30-07-2015, 06:24 AM
Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(29-07-2015 09:40 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 09:12 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I don't disagree with the basic point you're making, that corporations should be paying living wages.

But I do try and reserve my judgement on the "luxuries" you list because they tend to become a focal point of judgement for some people.

For instance, my wife and I hit a really rough patch about 5 years ago. She couldn't find work and all we had was the base pay of a grad student (which isn't much) on top of mounting bills (like her loan payments). At the time, we already had iPhones before we hit the rough patch, on my mom's plan, and even nice clothes. But we also had a kid and no way of feeding all of us and affording housing. So we had WIC (women, infants, and children). No doubt that we had plenty of judgement laid upon is for having such exorbitant luxuries as iPhones and cell phone plans along with nice clothes as we used the WIC checks. I'm slower to judge these days

Oh I do not judge someone for driving a jalopy (I ain't one to quit on a motor vehicle just cuz it's got a lil age Tongue ), or having a kid, but expecting Wal-Mart to pay for it... maybe apply at Cost-Co, friend! I've been in a Wal-Mart, and know if I ever go to apply there, it's Ramen noodles for me from now on! Weeping A Ford P.o.S., and a shitty apartment just big enough for my x-box is all I'd expect! Consider Probably all I'd need, too! I don't ask much.

But I was serious when I asked that half serious question. Revs talked about how most of the profits businesses take out of the lil guy's pocket are never seen again, and I was wondering if something could be done about that. Nothing on an individual basis, but perhaps being obligated by law to do something for the community from which they vampirically feed (I couldn't help that last). Like paying for a portion of the maintenance on the infrastructure that their employees utilize to travel between work and home. Anything to get just a little of that money back where it came from. Or am I pipe dreaming for realz? Laugh out load

Couple of things

1) proposing that wages be fairly adjusted for the employee isn't the equivalent of asking companies to buy things for their employees. Better wages foster more independence, and an ability to save money (hard to help your kids go to college when you can't help them save for it. Or to afford your own college classes. Etc)

2) companies kind of are supposed to be funneling money into the communities upon which they feed through tax money...unless the community has all but removed that tax burden as an incentive to get the company to come there in the first place.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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30-07-2015, 06:29 AM
Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(30-07-2015 12:12 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 06:11 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  That doesn't mean that corporations are paying them a fair wage. In a climate of record-breaking profits, I don't buy the argument that companies can't afford to pay their employees more. They can adjust prices and help cover cost. If gladly pay a little more here and there if it helped out with employee wages.

Unfortunately, not all consumers are so generous. They shop for price value, and that means that the company which best cuts expenses is more likely to succeed. I get the anger aroused by obscene CEO salaries -- it angers me -- but what are you going to do? Regulate how a company owner spends his budget?

I've never argued that companies cannot pay their employees more, so I'm unsure why you're directing that at me.

(29-07-2015 06:11 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And the basics of the employee/employer relationship all boil down to money. Employer wants profit, employee wants fair compensation. For decades the trickle down, low wage, anti-Union, pro-employer idea has slowly chipped away at the middle class while the pay at the top sky rocketed. It hasn't worked for our economy or the middle class. It's a slow return to slave wages.

I agree that the middle class is toast. But all the wage regulation in the world won't change that, because the middle class was killed by an international labor market that has Third-Worlders willing to make I-phones for three bucks a day. American labor is not competitive on the world market, and that means that American companies have one of two options -- offshore jobs, or minimize wages. It's a shit sandwich for the people who actually make the goods, yes -- but what is the alternative? Raising the minimum wage will not increase our competitiveness.

I disagree about consumers, I think a 10 cent markup here or a quarter markup there isn't going to change their buying habits (especially if the competitors raise prices to in order to adjust). It's similar to what Papa Johns CEO tried to argue for when the ACA went in place. He argued it would hurt his business because he'd have to raise prices and his consumers would be unhappy!!! Turns out, that adjustment need only be 25 cents or so. On $15 pizza, would you pay $15.25 if that meant health insurance for their employees? If dog food were $20.10 instead of $19.50 if it meant the employees could afford it too? I would.

And I also disagree about the middle class. It can recover and part of that is to help raise people's chances of getting into the middle class, and that at least starts with the bottom wages. But no, it isn't that simple to help the middle class as we also have to figure out how to remove the bulk of the tax burden from the middle and lower classes and I'm sure at least a half dozen other things I'm not thinking of (like access to education).

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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