Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
23-07-2015, 10:06 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
When the lower and middle classes have a larger share of the wealth (which would be aided by raising the minimum wage), then they are stronger as a group. They can save money, spend money, and when they can afford to spend less time worrying about money then they can spend more time being socially and communally active.

Now, if in a system that treats capitalism like a god you raise the minimum wage and the people at the top also expect to keep making the over-inflated wages and bonuses that they are making, then you are being naive. The minimum wage needs to increase and the rate at which the top wages grow needs to slow. The CEO to worker pay in this country is grossly out of proportion with the rest of the civilized world.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like TheBeardedDude's post
23-07-2015, 10:12 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(23-07-2015 10:00 AM)BnW Wrote:  I question the relationship between inflation and minimum wages. You may be right about it but the idea that you raise MW and 3 months later you have an elderly apocolypse doesn't seem right to me. Especially when, in theory, you are not really increasing their spending but are transferring the responsibility from tax payers to employer.

I get that for many people it's not 1 for 1 and there will be more spending, but more spending is not inflation.

It's pretty basic economics.

If you've got someone doing a job - that is worth "x" -- if you force the employer to pay x plus y, you have to offset y, by increasing the prices of your product.

You can't simply expect employers to absorb the price of y. If they do - they eventually become unprofitable. So all products and services go up in price by "y".

When the price of all the products go up by y - everyone's wage increase is negated because their buying power is now only the original x + y - y.

The numbers don't matter - any value you enter will work the same.

Again -- all raising the minimum wage does - is get politicians elected -- and spurs inflation.

Anyone tells you different - they're either trying to get elected - or they're working for minimum wage - and want a new TV.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-07-2015, 10:14 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(23-07-2015 10:06 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  When the lower and middle classes have a larger share of the wealth (which would be aided by raising the minimum wage), then they are stronger as a group. They can save money, spend money, and when they can afford to spend less time worrying about money then they can spend more time being socially and communally active.

Now, if in a system that treats capitalism like a god you raise the minimum wage and the people at the top also expect to keep making the over-inflated wages and bonuses that they are making, then you are being naive. The minimum wage needs to increase and the rate at which the top wages grow needs to slow. The CEO to worker pay in this country is grossly out of proportion with the rest of the civilized world.


Commonly known as "The Robin Hood Solution" ---

Keep in mind -- it's fiction......

It doesn't actually work.

(these opinions coming from somebody living FAR below the "poverty level")

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-07-2015, 10:21 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(23-07-2015 10:14 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 10:06 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  When the lower and middle classes have a larger share of the wealth (which would be aided by raising the minimum wage), then they are stronger as a group. They can save money, spend money, and when they can afford to spend less time worrying about money then they can spend more time being socially and communally active.

Now, if in a system that treats capitalism like a god you raise the minimum wage and the people at the top also expect to keep making the over-inflated wages and bonuses that they are making, then you are being naive. The minimum wage needs to increase and the rate at which the top wages grow needs to slow. The CEO to worker pay in this country is grossly out of proportion with the rest of the civilized world.


Commonly known as "The Robin Hood Solution" ---

Keep in mind -- it's fiction......

It doesn't actually work.

(these opinions coming from somebody living FAR below the "poverty level")

Not once did I say the money has to be taken from the rich in order for the poor to survive. (but the upper income brackets should also share a larger part of the tax burden instead of a system that has loophole after loophole and tax break after tax break that only benefit the wealthy and also allows for corporations to MAKE money come tax time).

I am talking about the structure of the pay scale itself. The very beginning of revenue distribution. I am NOT talking about giving money TO THE CEO'S AND THEN TAKING IT AWAY TO GIVE TO THE WORKERS. I am talking about giving the workers a larger cut from the beginning.

A system that plays Robin Hood is one where the Rich make all the money they want and the poor get handouts from the government in order to survive. That is the system we are in, except it isn't quite like Robin Hood because it isn't the rich or corporations who are contributing the largest share (percentage wise) to the social assistance programs that their workers receive. But they are the ones who benefit the most from it because the taxpayers are effectively paying part of their employees salaries while they rake in millions in bonuses.

So tell me again who is advocating for a "Robin Hood" solution?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-07-2015, 10:22 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(23-07-2015 10:12 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 10:00 AM)BnW Wrote:  I question the relationship between inflation and minimum wages. You may be right about it but the idea that you raise MW and 3 months later you have an elderly apocolypse doesn't seem right to me. Especially when, in theory, you are not really increasing their spending but are transferring the responsibility from tax payers to employer.

I get that for many people it's not 1 for 1 and there will be more spending, but more spending is not inflation.

It's pretty basic economics.

If you've got someone doing a job - that is worth "x" -- if you force the employer to pay x plus y, you have to offset y, by increasing the prices of your product.

And who determines the value of "x"?

Quote:You can't simply expect employers to absorb the price of y. If they do - they eventually become unprofitable. So all products and services go up in price by "y".

Yes, we can expect that, especially in these days of record corporate profit.

Quote:When the price of all the products go up by y - everyone's wage increase is negated because their buying power is now only the original x + y - y.

Well, then it is time for wage & price controls to get the system rational.

Quote:The numbers don't matter - any value you enter will work the same.

Again -- all raising the minimum wage does - is get politicians elected -- and spurs inflation.

Anyone tells you different - they're either trying to get elected - or they're working for minimum wage - and want a new TV.

So, you would like to do away with minimum wage?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Chas's post
23-07-2015, 10:28 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
I agree that *raising* the MW is pointless, but tying it to inflation is a different matter. There's also the additional complication of the price of housing, education, and medicine as compared to the buying power of (adjusted) dollars today versus in the past (hint: it's not good). It's not about just buying a new TV, it's about basic survival given the current system, no matter how hard a person works (not only fast food = min wage) and/or how much they may wish to change their station in life through educational opportunities they just don't have.

Addressing the rigged system that rewards businesses for operating in a way that allows (certain, mega-) corporations to mooch off the government tit and control the economic environment to their best advantage is a different matter as well.

If the goal is to "raise all boats", we cannot simply be Laissez-Faire in our policies, as history has already shown (now we call it "Free Market" or "deregulation", which even Libertarians admit cannot exist, and pretend it's something else) that the powerful groups will take advantage of their workers in truly atrocious ways. This isn't speculation, this is the way things were before the New Deal, against which the wealthy and powerful have been fighting ever since.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
23-07-2015, 10:37 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(23-07-2015 10:22 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 10:12 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  It's pretty basic economics.

If you've got someone doing a job - that is worth "x" -- if you force the employer to pay x plus y, you have to offset y, by increasing the prices of your product.

And who determines the value of "x"?

Quote:You can't simply expect employers to absorb the price of y. If they do - they eventually become unprofitable. So all products and services go up in price by "y".

Yes, we can expect that, especially in these days of record corporate profit.

Quote:When the price of all the products go up by y - everyone's wage increase is negated because their buying power is now only the original x + y - y.

Well, then it is time for wage & price controls to get the system rational.

Quote:The numbers don't matter - any value you enter will work the same.

Again -- all raising the minimum wage does - is get politicians elected -- and spurs inflation.

Anyone tells you different - they're either trying to get elected - or they're working for minimum wage - and want a new TV.

So, you would like to do away with minimum wage?


Yes -- minimum wage has ALWAYS just been about politicians getting votes. Is it any big surprise that it's coming up now - with an election on the horizon?? It never was a good idea.

And -- funnier yet -- with all the crying about how much CEO's are making -- why isn't there anything like a "MAXIMUM WAGE?"

Because -- that might lose a politician some funding - ya think?????

People who advocate minimum wage - are advocating poverty....

To get out of poverty - YOU HAVE TO BE ABOVE MINIMUM WAGE.....

That ain't gonna happen when they keep raising the bar...

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-07-2015, 10:39 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
If minimum wage is a poverty wage then they can't get out of poverty. But that is even worse when the minimum wage is that much further away from a living wage.

That is why people are advocating for it to become a living wage.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-07-2015, 10:44 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
Given the amount of resources that we import (currency is essentially a symbolic representation of available resources), we might benefit from increased minimum wage within our own country so long as no one complains about keeping the places we get our resources from impoverished in order to allow our own minimum wage workers to benefit from a higher relative wage globally.

I am, of course, being a cynical smartass as usual. I probably shouldn't get too much into my own opinion, which would likely piss off both sides of this debate Tongue

'Murican Canadian
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-07-2015, 10:57 AM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
I'm really pressed for time today so will have to get back later or tomorrow to continue. Also, I apologize in advance if my response comes off a curt or argumentative. Not my intention. So, with that said:

Your conclusions and analysis are wrong.

First, you don't understand inflation. Its a macro phenomenon and it doesn't work the way you are describing. Some prices going up is not inflation.

Second, prices are not set by cost of inputs. They are set by supply and demand. Increasing costs won't just translate to higher prices. For larger companies, it may translate to reductions in headcount, though. Small businesses could be pretty fucked as well and some won't survive. And, if they do this, they need to distinguish between people working after school and summer jobs. You can't expect to pay that much for high school kids. Butn point is, inflation is not a likely outcome. At least, not an immediate one.

Third, you act like people wanting disposable income is a bad thing. How do you think economies grow? Our problem is almost all the growth the past 30 years has been in the top percent. Wages for everyone else is stagnant.

I don't think increasing minimum wage is really a solution, but I disagree with you on the impacts.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like BnW's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: