Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
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30-07-2015, 12:19 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(30-07-2015 12:09 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(30-07-2015 11:47 AM)TheBear Wrote:  Again - talking about people who are already making MORE THAN $15 an hour. 3rd time this has been clarified to you. You're not going to admit what you did, even when plainly pointed out to you.

Trolls are the ones who want to save face and will not admit when they are flat-out wrong about something. Instead, they dig in their heels and double down. So be it. I now have a better insight as to who you are as a person.

Your words were not misconstrued or taken out of context. They were taken at face value. As Rev points out (using your own words), you didn't say what you're now claiming you did.

But by all means, project on to me ye amateur psychologist.

You called me biased and bigoted. You called someone else, who's views you disagree with, a troll. This ad hominem method you resort to, needs to stop. Until then, fuck off.
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30-07-2015, 12:30 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(30-07-2015 12:19 PM)TheBear Wrote:  
(30-07-2015 12:09 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Your words were not misconstrued or taken out of context. They were taken at face value. As Rev points out (using your own words), you didn't say what you're now claiming you did.

But by all means, project on to me ye amateur psychologist.

You called me biased and bigoted. You called someone else, who's views you disagree with, a troll. This ad hominem method you resort to, needs to stop. Until then, fuck off.

OBL has been a troll on this thread and others. Don't confuse the issue when he is called a troll by multiple people with anything your opinions were labeled as. I judge OBL as a troll based on a more holistic opinion of what he has said in this thread and other threads.


As for you, once again, I take what you say at face value.

(27-07-2015 03:21 PM)TheBear Wrote:  These lazy, 'minimum to get by' mentality, finding the easiest way to collect a paycheck, shitty work ethic types, will soon take over the work force. These fucking millennials, who think the world owes them, (the spoiled fucks), won't do shit to truly be productive.

(27-07-2015 03:30 PM)TheBear Wrote:  You're right. They didn't invent slacking, but they sure have doubled down on the concept and made it the norm. The lazy bastards.

(28-07-2015 09:48 AM)TheBear Wrote:  Bullshit.

I see it every day where I work. Slacking isn't the exception to the rule. It's the norm. And these people are making more than $15 an hour already. It has nothing to do with any bias or bigotry against the poor on my part. Nothing could be further from the truth. Keep your day job, because mind reading isn't your thing.

"These lazy, 'minimum to get by' mentality, finding the easiest way to collect a paycheck, shitty work ethic types, will soon take over the work force. These fucking millennials, who think the world owes them, (the spoiled fucks), won't do shit to truly be productive."

"You're right. They didn't invent slacking, but they sure have doubled down on the concept and made it the norm. The lazy bastards[millennials]."

"I see it every day where I work. Slacking isn't the exception to the rule. It's the norm. And these people are making more than $15 an hour already. It has nothing to do with any bias or bigotry against the poor on my part. Nothing could be further from the truth. Keep your day job, because mind reading isn't your thing."

Your judgmental views are based on a bias and bigotry against (as you put it) the lazy 'minimum to get by' mentality shitty work ethic types[millennials] fucking millennials the spoiled fucks who won't do shit to truly be productive. And The lazy bastards[millennials]"


So the line that "It has nothing to do with any bias or bigotry against the poor on my part." is complete and utter bullshit.


Don't like the your opinions being judged very directly and in a straightforward fashion? Maybe you shouldn't post such judgmental, biased, and bigoted bullshit? Just a thought Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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30-07-2015, 12:39 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(30-07-2015 12:16 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I realize it didn't happen overnight, but I think the fact that it occurred over a prolonged period is why the consumers had no real choice. Production slowly shifting from America to third world countries (and not just one company doing it, but competitors doing it to) made it impossible to see what was really happening.

The idea is that consumers choose which companies stay and go through competition, but that doesn't seem to happen that much in practice with large companies. The choice may be between choosing between two or three companies that all use foreign labor. Which means there is no choice at all. And a lot of people probably never paid any attention to where production occurred in the first place.

For instance, I'm using an iPhone and I know the conditions they are made in is deplorable. But other smart phone manufacturers do the same things and use the same cheap foreign labor. So when faced with a choice between different companies to buy my cell phone from, I've no choice at all for picking and selecting a company based on ethics, unless I don't buy one at all. And that doesn't do anything to the company because they've a million other customers to sell to.

The sad part is that America may never regain the manufacturing sector (the UK didn't), but that means there is a need to shift focus away from those sectors for jobs in the U.S. But now we're on another tangent and I'm not even sure what I'm discussing or defending at this point.

Hopefully you're not defending anything, because I'm not attacking. I'm enjoying the discussion because economics is a glaring weakness in my knowledge base, and I learn a lot discussing it no matter the POV espoused. I appreciate this now that the vitriol in the thread has abated.

I get what you're saying about lack of choice, but I think what happened is that when we consumers did have a choice, we didn't bother to make it an informed choice. We went for the lowest price/quality combination, and that was delivered by foreign factories. In so doing, we rather cut our own throat.



(30-07-2015 12:18 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  It doesn't - immediately.

Over time as inflation takes over - it does.

It also flattens wages overall - in any company that has a fixed period of pay raises...

If you're making MW +5% and they raise minimum -- on the next quarter -- you'll get your raise -- and so will the guy who made minimum, when you were +5%. You'll still be the lowest paid guy in the shop. (they won't be hiring -- trust me on this.. the first thing any business does when costs go up, is freeze hiring)

It's not just a slap in the face to those just above minimum - it's a kick in the nuts too, later on....

But that is not taking money away from the higher-paid workers, that's only narrowing the income gap. Slap in the face? Sure. That's why I mentioned short-sighted companies -- such a policy undermines morale and eventually retention, because the experienced demand more money and rightfully so. At that point, were I in that situation, I'd shop my skills to a higher bidder.

But because someone else now makes as much as I do does not mean I am poorer. That's what I'm trying to understand here.
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30-07-2015, 12:42 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(30-07-2015 12:39 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(30-07-2015 12:16 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I realize it didn't happen overnight, but I think the fact that it occurred over a prolonged period is why the consumers had no real choice. Production slowly shifting from America to third world countries (and not just one company doing it, but competitors doing it to) made it impossible to see what was really happening.

The idea is that consumers choose which companies stay and go through competition, but that doesn't seem to happen that much in practice with large companies. The choice may be between choosing between two or three companies that all use foreign labor. Which means there is no choice at all. And a lot of people probably never paid any attention to where production occurred in the first place.

For instance, I'm using an iPhone and I know the conditions they are made in is deplorable. But other smart phone manufacturers do the same things and use the same cheap foreign labor. So when faced with a choice between different companies to buy my cell phone from, I've no choice at all for picking and selecting a company based on ethics, unless I don't buy one at all. And that doesn't do anything to the company because they've a million other customers to sell to.

The sad part is that America may never regain the manufacturing sector (the UK didn't), but that means there is a need to shift focus away from those sectors for jobs in the U.S. But now we're on another tangent and I'm not even sure what I'm discussing or defending at this point.

Hopefully you're not defending anything, because I'm not attacking. I'm enjoying the discussion because economics is a glaring weakness in my knowledge base, and I learn a lot discussing it no matter the POV espoused. I appreciate this now that the vitriol in the thread has abated.

I get what you're saying about lack of choice, but I think what happened is that when we consumers did have a choice, we didn't bother to make it an informed choice. We went for the lowest price/quality combination, and that was delivered by foreign factories. In so doing, we rather cut our own throat.



(30-07-2015 12:18 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  It doesn't - immediately.

Over time as inflation takes over - it does.

It also flattens wages overall - in any company that has a fixed period of pay raises...

If you're making MW +5% and they raise minimum -- on the next quarter -- you'll get your raise -- and so will the guy who made minimum, when you were +5%. You'll still be the lowest paid guy in the shop. (they won't be hiring -- trust me on this.. the first thing any business does when costs go up, is freeze hiring)

It's not just a slap in the face to those just above minimum - it's a kick in the nuts too, later on....

But that is not taking money away from the higher-paid workers, that's only narrowing the income gap. Slap in the face? Sure. That's why I mentioned short-sighted companies -- such a policy undermines morale and eventually retention, because the experienced demand more money and rightfully so. At that point, were I in that situation, I'd shop my skills to a higher bidder.

But because someone else now makes as much as I do does not mean I am poorer. That's what I'm trying to understand here.

I don't think consumers have ever really made an honest attempt to be informed. Which is why this problem (economy and wages, etc) has become so exacerbated.

The worst part is the misinformation being piped in to continue to fuel support for failed ideologies about economics and corporation responsibilities and taxes.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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30-07-2015, 12:47 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
Agreed on both counts, especially the point about corporate taxes. If corporations are people for the purposes of political donations, why aren't they people when it comes to the tax code?

Probably because of those donations ...
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30-07-2015, 12:48 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(30-07-2015 12:47 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Agreed on both counts, especially the point about corporate taxes. If corporations are people for the purposes of political donations, why aren't they people when it comes to the tax code?

Probably because of those donations ...

When a corporation can be convicted of a crime and go to jail or be executed by the state of Texas, I'll consider them people.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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30-07-2015, 01:36 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(30-07-2015 12:47 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  If corporations are people for the purposes of political donations, why aren't they people when it comes to the tax code?
Taxes are simply an expense, a huge expense. If hiring a decent accountant can help reduce or remove the tax expense then that is the smart thing to do. Why pay taxes if you don't have to? That would be silly.
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30-07-2015, 01:37 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(30-07-2015 10:17 AM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  
(30-07-2015 01:25 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  No evidence has ever been shown by the left that food stamp programs and such allow Walmart to pay less as they often claim.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor...ssistance/

http://democrats.edworkforce.house.gov/s...ay2013.pdf

Evidence presented.


Yes many Walmart employees are on public assistance. I don't dispute that. However if those employees suddenly lost their public assistance, what evidence do you have to show that Walmart would have to increase its wages to retain sufficient number of employees to do business? The "evidence" you presented doesn't speak to the question I asked.

Government programs increase Walmart's labor cost because employees don't need the job as badly as if those programs did not exist. Government programs decrease people's need to work so it stands to reason that they will want to work less.
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30-07-2015, 01:39 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(30-07-2015 12:19 PM)TheBear Wrote:  You called me biased and bigoted. You called someone else, who's views you disagree with, a troll. This ad hominem method you resort to, needs to stop. Until then, fuck off.
I must say, that TheBeardedDude and I have had long completely opposite view disagreements on things that others would get all emotional over and resort to ad hominem's and our disagreements never went down that path.

I give TheBeardedDude full credit for his awesomeness on this.
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30-07-2015, 01:44 PM
RE: Raising Minimum Wage - or How to Keep the Poor, Poor.
(30-07-2015 01:39 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-07-2015 12:19 PM)TheBear Wrote:  You called me biased and bigoted. You called someone else, who's views you disagree with, a troll. This ad hominem method you resort to, needs to stop. Until then, fuck off.
I must say, that TheBeardedDude and I have had long completely opposite view disagreements on things that others would get all emotional over and resort to ad hominem's and our disagreements never went down that path.

I give TheBeardedDude full credit for his awesomeness on this.

But that is because you're an asshole like I am Big Grin

Assholes, UNITE!!!!

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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