Raising free thinking children with religious family
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
18-03-2012, 10:09 AM
RE: Raising free thinking children with religious family
Quote:Good-intentioned lies are still lies. If you believed in Santa Claus as a kid, you probably remember when you found out it was false. It's a traumatic thing for nearly every Santa Claus-indoctrinated child.

Children will grieve over death no matter how you paint it. So why pile on that with something worthless? Is it so you can feel like you actively did something?

"That should take away many depressing feelings that a child might experience about death" is just an assertion, and I doubt it's a valid one that's backed with evidence. But prove me wrong by citing something that demonstrates that stories about Heaven actually reduce the time involved in the grieving process, or reduce the pain of it (assuming that such a thing is objectively measurable).

I have no trauma from the Santa Claus issue, except this irresistable urge to kill fat people dressed in red.

I'm not sure if I agree with you about the grieve part. I've not found anything proving that the grieving process is shorter if you believe in heaven, but I would assume that if you believe that you can see the deceased again in a nice and happy place it would make you grieve less.

Good-intentioned lies will always be used in the upbringing of children.

That being said I didn't want to stretch it beyond the "heaven" thingy. Children should grow up to make their own choices about this. Also, it's not sure that your children will become as strong as you. I would never stop my (I don't have kids now, so this is in theory) kids from relying upon christianity to get the strength they need in their life.
Life is certainly not always easy. I wish for happiness upon all children.

That being said I would try to stop my children from hating gay people etc. The "hatred" parts of the bible doesn't lead to anything good.

Quote:You think you have control over your children's beliefs. You don't, and you won't. God will have His way with you and your kids.

Then you agree to not indoctrinate children?
God will have his way anyway?
Good, then don't force beliefs upon children.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2012, 10:53 AM
RE: Raising free thinking children with religious family
(18-03-2012 10:09 AM)Dust Wrote:  I'm not sure if I agree with you about the grieve part. I've not found anything proving that the grieving process is shorter if you believe in heaven, but I would assume that if you believe that you can see the deceased again in a nice and happy place it would make you grieve less.

Grief is irrational and physical and heaven or no heaven has nothing to do with it.

Grief is not about the dead person, it's about the living person.

Grief is triggered by any situation that invokes the memory of the dead person. Once triggered, it is a physical reaction and uncontrollable (well, maybe it can be controlled by some, but if it is it will not resolve itself but continue to return over and over until it is resolved).

Severity of grief is controlled by how much time you spent with the departed, how recent, for how long, how many activities you shared etc etc. Whether they went on to heaven or hell or into outer space - gone is gone and grief is about your body and mind adjusting to a major part of your life having disappeared completely.

Grief can last years or even all your life, although most triggers tend to wear off after having been encountered a number of times. There is emphatic grief too, but it is much milder and short lived.

Phantasies and dreams about the dead person occur whether you imagine them in heaven or sitting on a garden bench with you. They occur because the mind tries to sort remaining unfinished business, which you will have even if all the important things have been said and done prior to the person's death. And because it's just hard to let go sometimes. Since the person is not there anymore, the mind tries to create them once again in order to sort some stuff out.

It's all part of the body and mind working together to eliminate trigger after trigger, until you get to the point where all the unpleasant ones have been resolved and you are left with - ahh - selective memory. The good stuff never gets forgotten.

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dom's post
18-03-2012, 01:45 PM
 
RE: Raising free thinking children with religious family
(18-03-2012 10:09 AM)Dust Wrote:  Then you agree to not indoctrinate children?
God will have his way anyway?
Good, then don't force beliefs upon children.

Yeah, why give them any guidance at all. Just let 'em be.
Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2012, 02:27 PM
RE: Raising free thinking children with religious family
(18-03-2012 10:09 AM)Dust Wrote:  Then you agree to not indoctrinate children?
God will have his way anyway?
Good, then don't force beliefs upon children.

Not to pick on you, but I like to irony in the statement with respect to god's gift of free will. God will indoctrinate the children so the parents don't have to!

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2012, 03:27 PM
RE: Raising free thinking children with religious family
(18-03-2012 01:45 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(18-03-2012 10:09 AM)Dust Wrote:  Then you agree to not indoctrinate children?
God will have his way anyway?
Good, then don't force beliefs upon children.

Yeah, why give them any guidance at all. Just let 'em be.

Children will do well without religious guidance.
They will not do well without any guidance at all.

I was forced to do some hasty posts in this thread because I had stuff to do, so the explanations are pretty mediocre.

But I never thought people would disagree with the "heaven" part helping those who grieve. Let's say for instance that heaven was real (just an example), would you grieve as much KNOWING that the person who died went there (instead of nonexistence/hell)?
I know I wouldn't.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2012, 04:27 PM
RE: Raising free thinking children with religious family
(18-03-2012 03:27 PM)Dust Wrote:  But I never thought people would disagree with the "heaven" part helping those who grieve. Let's say for instance that heaven was real (just an example), would you grieve as much KNOWING that the person who died went there (instead of nonexistence/hell)?
I know I wouldn't.

You can feel good about them because they are in heaven, or because they had a peaceful death, or because you know you did everything you could to help, or any number of reasons, and there is comfort there.

Feeling good about the person who died does help some, just like it is very disturbing and aggravates things if they were murdered or some horrific thing.

But it does not directly affect grief, which is a physical weaning away from something that has been an integral part of your life. Grief depends solely on how intertwined your life was with the departed. It doesn't even matter whether you liked the person. Abused women and children grieve for the abuser.

Grief remains grief regardless of all that, it's physical.

Most people don't know or get that, and I didn't either until I was forced to do a lot of research into it because I was grieving heavily and thought I was out of my mind. Grief will make you act in very uncharacteristic ways. Most people question their sanity when "grief stricken". I have lost a lot of people in my life, family and friends, and I grieved for all of them, but it was nothing like this last time.

Severe grief starts out as pure physical pain and mental numbness. No image of someone in heaven is going to stop that.

Anyway, here I am again trying to explain grief. It's probably one of the most misunderstood things, and probably half of us will get hit with a whopper of it eventually. It's not a phenomenon of the mind, it is based on your physical body.

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2012, 07:52 PM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2012 08:44 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Raising free thinking children with religious family
(18-03-2012 10:09 AM)Dust Wrote:  
Quote:Good-intentioned lies are still lies. If you believed in Santa Claus as a kid, you probably remember when you found out it was false. It's a traumatic thing for nearly every Santa Claus-indoctrinated child.

Children will grieve over death no matter how you paint it. So why pile on that with something worthless? Is it so you can feel like you actively did something?

"That should take away many depressing feelings that a child might experience about death" is just an assertion, and I doubt it's a valid one that's backed with evidence. But prove me wrong by citing something that demonstrates that stories about Heaven actually reduce the time involved in the grieving process, or reduce the pain of it (assuming that such a thing is objectively measurable).

I have no trauma from the Santa Claus issue, except this irresistable urge to kill fat people dressed in red.

I'm not sure if I agree with you about the grieve part. I've not found anything proving that the grieving process is shorter if you believe in heaven, but I would assume that if you believe that you can see the deceased again in a nice and happy place it would make you grieve less.

Good-intentioned lies will always be used in the upbringing of children.

That being said I didn't want to stretch it beyond the "heaven" thingy. Children should grow up to make their own choices about this. Also, it's not sure that your children will become as strong as you. I would never stop my (I don't have kids now, so this is in theory) kids from relying upon christianity to get the strength they need in their life.
Life is certainly not always easy. I wish for happiness upon all children.

That being said I would try to stop my children from hating gay people etc. The "hatred" parts of the bible doesn't lead to anything good.

Quote:You think you have control over your children's beliefs. You don't, and you won't. God will have His way with you and your kids.

Then you agree to not indoctrinate children?
God will have his way anyway?
Good, then don't force beliefs upon children.

Hi Dust, have been following all your good comments and I'm sure you and I essentially "bat for the same team". I must, however , question one of your statements. You wrote "I would never stop my (I don't have kids now, so this is in theory) kids from relying upon christianity to get the strength they need in their life."
I suspect that's not really what you think (is it?) Surely we mustn't let this, in my opinion, false idea be propagated. Please clarify what you mean...I am genuinely interested.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2012, 08:30 PM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2012 08:38 PM by Dust.)
RE: Raising free thinking children with religious family
(18-03-2012 07:52 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(18-03-2012 10:09 AM)Dust Wrote:  
Quote:Good-intentioned lies are still lies. If you believed in Santa Claus as a kid, you probably remember when you found out it was false. It's a traumatic thing for nearly every Santa Claus-indoctrinated child.

Children will grieve over death no matter how you paint it. So why pile on that with something worthless? Is it so you can feel like you actively did something?

"That should take away many depressing feelings that a child might experience about death" is just an assertion, and I doubt it's a valid one that's backed with evidence. But prove me wrong by citing something that demonstrates that stories about Heaven actually reduce the time involved in the grieving process, or reduce the pain of it (assuming that such a thing is objectively measurable).

I have no trauma from the Santa Claus issue, except this irresistable urge to kill fat people dressed in red.

I'm not sure if I agree with you about the grieve part. I've not found anything proving that the grieving process is shorter if you believe in heaven, but I would assume that if you believe that you can see the deceased again in a nice and happy place it would make you grieve less.

Good-intentioned lies will always be used in the upbringing of children.

That being said I didn't want to stretch it beyond the "heaven" thingy. Children should grow up to make their own choices about this. Also, it's not sure that your children will become as strong as you. I would never stop my (I don't have kids now, so this is in theory) kids from relying upon christianity to get the strength they need in their life.
Life is certainly not always easy. I wish for happiness upon all children.

That being said I would try to stop my children from hating gay people etc. The "hatred" parts of the bible doesn't lead to anything good.

Quote:You think you have control over your children's beliefs. You don't, and you won't. God will have His way with you and your kids.

Then you agree to not indoctrinate children?
God will have his way anyway?
Good, then don't force beliefs upon children.

Hi Dust, have been following all your good comments and I'm sure you and I essentially "bat for the same team". I must, however , question one of your staements. You wrote "I would never stop my (I don't have kids now, so this is in theory) kids from relying upon christianity to get the strength they need in their life."
I suspect that's not really what you think (is it?) Surely we mustn't let this, in my opinion, false idea be propagated. Please clarify what you mean...I am genuinely interested.

Thanks for the compliments.
I would more or less consider myself a "truthseeker", but I deeply respect people's opinion, no matter what they are (as long as they don't really hurt someone).

I am no enemy of christianity (I DO question it a lot though, as it has a good amount of rotten parts), I simply wish for all people to find their peace if life.

As for your question; I wouldn't mind my children to grow up to be christians, as long as it doesn't create hatred. http://www.uua.org/beliefs/principles/index.shtml is something I would certainly encourage.

That being said, the problem with christianity is that the bible DOES encourage hatred no matter how you look at it. THAT'S what annoys me. Nonbelievers going to hell, homosexuals should be put to death and a bunch of other stuff is pure shit.

I live in Sweden, where the amount of religious "nuts" are almost nonexistant. That's why I haven't gotten in too many verbal fights with christians.

Sweden is an "atheist country" by many means.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

I came to this forum to learn and understand arguments for/against religion, so I don't want to label myself atheist/agnostic/theist yet.

Had I been living in a country where people would try to force their beliefs down my throat, it would not be unlikely for me to become a true atheist, since I never blindly accept anything.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2012, 09:53 PM
RE: Raising free thinking children with religious family
(18-03-2012 08:30 PM)Dust Wrote:  
(18-03-2012 07:52 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(18-03-2012 10:09 AM)Dust Wrote:  
Quote:Good-intentioned lies are still lies. If you believed in Santa Claus as a kid, you probably remember when you found out it was false. It's a traumatic thing for nearly every Santa Claus-indoctrinated child.

Children will grieve over death no matter how you paint it. So why pile on that with something worthless? Is it so you can feel like you actively did something?

"That should take away many depressing feelings that a child might experience about death" is just an assertion, and I doubt it's a valid one that's backed with evidence. But prove me wrong by citing something that demonstrates that stories about Heaven actually reduce the time involved in the grieving process, or reduce the pain of it (assuming that such a thing is objectively measurable).

I have no trauma from the Santa Claus issue, except this irresistable urge to kill fat people dressed in red.

I'm not sure if I agree with you about the grieve part. I've not found anything proving that the grieving process is shorter if you believe in heaven, but I would assume that if you believe that you can see the deceased again in a nice and happy place it would make you grieve less.

Good-intentioned lies will always be used in the upbringing of children.

That being said I didn't want to stretch it beyond the "heaven" thingy. Children should grow up to make their own choices about this. Also, it's not sure that your children will become as strong as you. I would never stop my (I don't have kids now, so this is in theory) kids from relying upon christianity to get the strength they need in their life.
Life is certainly not always easy. I wish for happiness upon all children.

That being said I would try to stop my children from hating gay people etc. The "hatred" parts of the bible doesn't lead to anything good.

Quote:You think you have control over your children's beliefs. You don't, and you won't. God will have His way with you and your kids.

Then you agree to not indoctrinate children?
God will have his way anyway?
Good, then don't force beliefs upon children.

Hi Dust, have been following all your good comments and I'm sure you and I essentially "bat for the same team". I must, however , question one of your staements. You wrote "I would never stop my (I don't have kids now, so this is in theory) kids from relying upon christianity to get the strength they need in their life."
I suspect that's not really what you think (is it?) Surely we mustn't let this, in my opinion, false idea be propagated. Please clarify what you mean...I am genuinely interested.

Thanks for the compliments.
I would more or less consider myself a "truthseeker", but I deeply respect people's opinion, no matter what they are (as long as they don't really hurt someone).

I am no enemy of christianity (I DO question it a lot though, as it has a good amount of rotten parts), I simply wish for all people to find their peace if life.

As for your question; I wouldn't mind my children to grow up to be christians, as long as it doesn't create hatred. http://www.uua.org/beliefs/principles/index.shtml is something I would certainly encourage.

That being said, the problem with christianity is that the bible DOES encourage hatred no matter how you look at it. THAT'S what annoys me. Nonbelievers going to hell, homosexuals should be put to death and a bunch of other stuff is pure shit.

I live in Sweden, where the amount of religious "nuts" are almost nonexistant. That's why I haven't gotten in too many verbal fights with christians.

Sweden is an "atheist country" by many means.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

I came to this forum to learn and understand arguments for/against religion, so I don't want to label myself atheist/agnostic/theist yet.

Had I been living in a country where people would try to force their beliefs down my throat, it would not be unlikely for me to become a true atheist, since I never blindly accept anything.

Hi Dust, thanks for your reply. Your English is excellent. I have been studying Christianity for many years, and whilst I have no wish to force my beliefs on you, I suspect you may not fully appreciate some of the insidiously nasty aspects of the typical Christian agenda. I say this because you believe there is no problem allowing your children to become Christians, whereas it is very clear to me there most definitely is.

I have had a look at the unitarian universalist website, and they appear to be good ethical people. But when they use phrases such as "amazing grace" "a child's book of blessings and prayers" "worshipping with children" etc I smell a rat....churches have somehow made their way into this otherwise healthy organisation.

Personally, I am zealous (more so than most on this forum) in my opposition to churches, paricularly when they have access to children. I am deeply committed to making the world more aware of the damage that churches and Christian thinking has inflicted on society. I cannot explain all my reasoning in such a short post, so I invite you to have a look at my website at http://www.markfulton.org I am interested in your opinions and your feedback.

Warm regards, Mark
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-03-2012, 09:26 AM
RE: Raising free thinking children with religious family
(18-03-2012 09:53 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(18-03-2012 08:30 PM)Dust Wrote:  
(18-03-2012 07:52 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(18-03-2012 10:09 AM)Dust Wrote:  
Quote:Good-intentioned lies are still lies. If you believed in Santa Claus as a kid, you probably remember when you found out it was false. It's a traumatic thing for nearly every Santa Claus-indoctrinated child.

Children will grieve over death no matter how you paint it. So why pile on that with something worthless? Is it so you can feel like you actively did something?

"That should take away many depressing feelings that a child might experience about death" is just an assertion, and I doubt it's a valid one that's backed with evidence. But prove me wrong by citing something that demonstrates that stories about Heaven actually reduce the time involved in the grieving process, or reduce the pain of it (assuming that such a thing is objectively measurable).

I have no trauma from the Santa Claus issue, except this irresistable urge to kill fat people dressed in red.

I'm not sure if I agree with you about the grieve part. I've not found anything proving that the grieving process is shorter if you believe in heaven, but I would assume that if you believe that you can see the deceased again in a nice and happy place it would make you grieve less.

Good-intentioned lies will always be used in the upbringing of children.

That being said I didn't want to stretch it beyond the "heaven" thingy. Children should grow up to make their own choices about this. Also, it's not sure that your children will become as strong as you. I would never stop my (I don't have kids now, so this is in theory) kids from relying upon christianity to get the strength they need in their life.
Life is certainly not always easy. I wish for happiness upon all children.

That being said I would try to stop my children from hating gay people etc. The "hatred" parts of the bible doesn't lead to anything good.

Quote:You think you have control over your children's beliefs. You don't, and you won't. God will have His way with you and your kids.

Then you agree to not indoctrinate children?
God will have his way anyway?
Good, then don't force beliefs upon children.

Hi Dust, have been following all your good comments and I'm sure you and I essentially "bat for the same team". I must, however , question one of your staements. You wrote "I would never stop my (I don't have kids now, so this is in theory) kids from relying upon christianity to get the strength they need in their life."
I suspect that's not really what you think (is it?) Surely we mustn't let this, in my opinion, false idea be propagated. Please clarify what you mean...I am genuinely interested.

Thanks for the compliments.
I would more or less consider myself a "truthseeker", but I deeply respect people's opinion, no matter what they are (as long as they don't really hurt someone).

I am no enemy of christianity (I DO question it a lot though, as it has a good amount of rotten parts), I simply wish for all people to find their peace if life.

As for your question; I wouldn't mind my children to grow up to be christians, as long as it doesn't create hatred. http://www.uua.org/beliefs/principles/index.shtml is something I would certainly encourage.

That being said, the problem with christianity is that the bible DOES encourage hatred no matter how you look at it. THAT'S what annoys me. Nonbelievers going to hell, homosexuals should be put to death and a bunch of other stuff is pure shit.

I live in Sweden, where the amount of religious "nuts" are almost nonexistant. That's why I haven't gotten in too many verbal fights with christians.

Sweden is an "atheist country" by many means.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

I came to this forum to learn and understand arguments for/against religion, so I don't want to label myself atheist/agnostic/theist yet.

Had I been living in a country where people would try to force their beliefs down my throat, it would not be unlikely for me to become a true atheist, since I never blindly accept anything.

Hi Dust, thanks for your reply. Your English is excellent. I have been studying Christianity for many years, and whilst I have no wish to force my beliefs on you, I suspect you may not fully appreciate some of the insidiously nasty aspects of the typical Christian agenda. I say this because you believe there is no problem allowing your children to become Christians, whereas it is very clear to me there most definitely is.

I have had a look at the unitarian universalist website, and they appear to be good ethical people. But when they use phrases such as "amazing grace" "a child's book of blessings and prayers" "worshipping with children" etc I smell a rat....churches have somehow made their way into this otherwise healthy organisation.

Personally, I am zealous (more so than most on this forum) in my opposition to churches, paricularly when they have access to children. I am deeply committed to making the world more aware of the damage that churches and Christian thinking has inflicted on society. I cannot explain all my reasoning in such a short post, so I invite you to have a look at my website at http://www.markfulton.org I am interested in your opinions and your feedback.

Warm regards, Mark

I read a little about your "Christianity and Dysfunctional Societies" and saw a picture of atheism in Sweden.
Sad part is that we all eat babies. Tasty, tasty babies...

From the church here in Sweden I've always been treated with respect. They are never judgemental, and welcomes everyone with open arms.
I had/have some christian friends from a group I used to be in (I didn't care too much about the christian part, it was the people I was there for) but I left after a few years because you were forced to join them in prayer. I just can't take people forcing me to do stuff.

I assume that the Unitarian Univeralist church is something like that. Since they teach people to respect others no matter who they are (which is VERY important) I simply cannot judge them. If I could choose if my child would become a christian with good morals, or an atheist with mediocre morals, I would choose the christian.

Of course I don't mean that an atheist has any worse morals than a christian (the opposite could probably be more true, especially if the christian is devout).

That being said I will not encourage them to seek out christian groups. But if they find one and they are happy there, I will not stop them.

The church simply doesn't do bad stuff here in Sweden. Priests are usually wannabe psychologists who help people out. But if there were a large amount of literalist christians here, my mind would quickly change. I do NOT want my child to become something like a literalist christian.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: