Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
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03-03-2013, 11:45 AM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
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(03-03-2013 11:02 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Ralph, you're a liar and a fraud.

And I love you too. Unfortunately, that is a common reaction, because I am not a theologian or professor.

However, theologians are not qualified to do this research, because they do not want to find the truth. And historians are not qualified, because they refuse to read the religious texts.

I have been in numerous on-line arguments, that start with historians thinking I will be a complete pushover, because I no relevant titles to my name. They then get into a complete pickle, because it is immediately apparent that they have never read the Talmud or Tanakh, and are making baseless comments based upon Sunday School hearsay. They then get so frustrated they become abusive.

Being an Atheist captivated by theology, I am in a unique position to find Jesus in the historical record, and that I have just done (after 35 years of research).




(03-03-2013 11:02 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  PS. Just messin' with ya.
Have you published any of your findings ?
Sounds like it would be a fascinating read.


Yes, ten books so far. Depends upon what you are interested in.

Old Testament.

Tempest & Exodus
.... (The Exodus was caused by the eruption of Santorini.)
.... (Mt Sinai was the Great Pyramid)
... (there is a stele of Ahmose I with quotes from the Torah on it)

Eden in Egypt
.... ( Adam and Eve were Pharaoh Akhenation and Nefertiti)
... (which is why the former were portrayed as being naked in the Garden of Aten, the garden of the god Aten)

Solomon, Pharaoh of Egypt
Self explanatory.
.... (which is why there is no evidence for the United Monarchy in Judaea.)
.... (in reality, their capital city was not in Zion (Jerusalem) but in Zoan (Tanis) )


New Testament.
The King Jesus Trilogy.

Cleopatra to Christ
.... (Jesus was descended from Queen Cleopatra, through Phraates IV of Parthia)

King Jesus
.... (Saul was Josephus, so the gospel events happened in the AD 60s.)
.... (Jesus was King Izas of Adiabene, the leader of the Jewish Revolt)

Jesus, King of Edessa
.... ( Jesus was a minor king in northern Syria)

The last of these books is interesting, as it finally resolves who Jesus was. The former book identified him as King Izas of Adiabane, who is a semi-mythical character mainly in the books of Josephus Flavius, but not in the historical record. This was interesting, but by necessity somewhat inconclusive.

However, when I was in Syria, I discovered that King Izas was actually a title of one of the kings of Edessa, in norer Syria (as it was then). This is King Izas-Manu au Kama VI of Edessa, the Nazarene Jew whose mother furnished the Temple of Jerusalem. And if we follow his story in the Talmud, we also see that he was high priest of Jerusalem in AD 63 (as was Jesus in Hebrews 7) and he married Mary Magdalene and Martha of Bethany. Incidentally, the Talmud says that Mary Mag was the richest woman in Judaea, and she bought the high priesthood for Jesus with some 65 kilos of silver.


It is an interesting history, and is fully supported by the many historical texts used. However, it is sad that Christians do not want to find their precious Jesus in the historical record. In fact, they are openly afraid of him.


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03-03-2013, 11:53 AM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2013 12:28 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
Hi kids.
Interesting. I'm not all that conversant with the Southern (Egyptian), traditions, as I study the North, (the Babylonian connections), but some of his points are quite well taken. In fact it is what my long OT posts were about. But we know they are there. I don't know if I agree about the origins of Yahweh, as we know he was the 40th son of El Elyon, from the Sumerian pantheon, but we do also know just as Ellis says, that he may have been, (in fact likely was), conflated with the Javeh mountain god from the South, and this would fit with what he's saying.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...olden+Calf
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ment+texts

The Ten Commandments also came word for word, out of the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Mr. Ellis may mention that somewhere, I don't know. So I will read this with great interest. Of course there were ALREADY Semite settlements in Caanan when supposedly the Exodus happened, (as recorded on the Mernepteh stele), and that is well known among archaeologists. Of course the religions don't teach that. But I wholeheartedly agree, in general religious people have no clue about the real historical origins of their cult. Mark can deal with the NT Jebus stuff. But I will watch and read.

Welcome Mr. Ellis. Good to have someone who thinks outside the box. His major thrust, ie that in general the REAL origins are almost unknown to the public, is true, but it's not really unknown to scholars. Have you read Friedmann or Schnieidewind ? (Richard Elliot Friedman or William M. Schniedewind PhD, Kershaw Chair of Ancient Eastern Mediterranean Studies and Professor of Biblical Studies and Northwest Semitic Languages at UCLA, author of "How the Bible Became a Book", also "The Word of God in Transition" and "Society and the Promise to David", Richard Elliott Freidmann, PhD, "Who Wrote the Bible".

Oh also the volcano god connection is absolutley true, and in fact Javeh was probably a volcano god, and has been documented by others, elsewhere. So it does sound rather "nutty". In fact it's not.

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03-03-2013, 12:16 PM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
(03-03-2013 11:36 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  "If people must have a belief and a religion, then at least it should be based on real facts and not on fairytales."

How could a religion be based on facts? That's like saying, "If I'm going to own a Unicorn, it should at least be one with four legs and a tail." Horses exist and tales about horses with horns exist but Unicorns don't. Likewise, religions exist but their foundational premises do not. Thus, they are not and can not be based on facts. You might be able to prove that there was a man named Jesus and you might be able to prove his race and many other things about him but that does nothing to place religion on a foundation of facts.

Also, you didn't tell me anything about your motivation. You made some observations and told me what you're doing but that doesn't speak to the why.


Depends on what you mean by 'a religion'.

If you talk to many Christians, the religion is founded upon, dictated by, and utterly dependent upon a character called Jesus, who lived in 1st century Judaea. Ergo, if one could find the real Jesus in the historical record, we are more than half way towards discovering the foundations of the institution known as Christianity. But more than that, we may also be able to discover the foundations of the original religion, before Saul morphed it into Christianity.


I am not sure if you are aware, but Christianity has nothing to do with the original Nazarene Church of Jesus. Christianity was a Rome-friendly form of Judaism invented by Saul, Jesus' primary enemy. Thus the New Testament is like reading a biography of Winston Churchill that was written by Adolf Hitler. Yes, the Christian error is that fundamental.

In reality, the Nazarene Church of Jesus was Egypto-Sabaean. In other words it looked to the heavens and cosmos, and its leaders were Sabaean astronomer priests. In particular, they looked to the Precession of the Equinox, the slow precessional wobble of the Earth that takes 25,680 years to complete (the Great Year). This Great Year is divided into 12 Great Months named by the constellations, each 2,140 years long.

As it happens, the Great Month of Aries ended in AD 10, and was followed by the Great Month of Pisces. This is why Jesus was born as a Lamb of God (Aries) but became a Fisher of Men (Pisces). In other words, the original religion was all about Sabaeanism (astronomy) and Gnosis (science). Personally, I would rather we had a modern 'religion' that was based upon astronomy and science, than the vacuous ones we have now.


Oh, the other thing that was central to the Nazarene Church of Jesus was the ownership of a meteorite. This is why the holy Jewish day is Yom Kippur; why Simon was called Simon Peter Cephas; and why Jesus wore a ceremonial so-called Crown of Thorns. This was the same meteorite that was taken to Rome by Emperor Elagabalus of the early 3rd century. It would be nice to know what happened to this meteorite, after its short sojourn in Rome. A piece of it is supposed to be in the Kaba in Mecca, but the provenance of that stone is not verifiable.


As to motivation, I thought I explained that. It would be better if theists based their beliefs on reality instead of mythology. Especially since the religion of their great leader was originally astronomy and science.


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03-03-2013, 12:23 PM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
(03-03-2013 12:16 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(03-03-2013 11:36 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  "If people must have a belief and a religion, then at least it should be based on real facts and not on fairytales."

How could a religion be based on facts? That's like saying, "If I'm going to own a Unicorn, it should at least be one with four legs and a tail." Horses exist and tales about horses with horns exist but Unicorns don't. Likewise, religions exist but their foundational premises do not. Thus, they are not and can not be based on facts. You might be able to prove that there was a man named Jesus and you might be able to prove his race and many other things about him but that does nothing to place religion on a foundation of facts.

Also, you didn't tell me anything about your motivation. You made some observations and told me what you're doing but that doesn't speak to the why.


Depends on what you mean by 'a religion'.

If you talk to many Christians, the religion is founded upon, dictated by, and utterly dependent upon a character called Jesus, who lived in 1st century Judaea. Ergo, if one could find the real Jesus in the historical record, we are more than half way towards discovering the foundations of the institution known as Christianity. But more than that, we may also be able to discover the foundations of the original religion, before Saul morphed it into Christianity.


I am not sure if you are aware, but Christianity has nothing to do with the original Nazarene Church of Jesus. Christianity was a Rome-friendly form of Judaism invented by Saul, Jesus' primary enemy. Thus the New Testament is like reading a biography of Winston Churchill that was written by Adolf Hitler. Yes, the Christian error is that fundamental.

In reality, the Nazarene Church of Jesus was Egypto-Sabaean. In other words it looked to the heavens and cosmos, and its leaders were Sabaean astronomer priests. In particular, they looked to the Precession of the Equinox, the slow precessional wobble of the Earth that takes 25,680 years to complete (the Great Year). This Great Year is divided into 12 Great Months named by the constellations, each 2,140 years long.

As it happens, the Great Month of Aries ended in AD 10, and was followed by the Great Month of Pisces. This is why Jesus was born as a Lamb of God (Aries) but became a Fisher of Men (Pisces). In other words, the original religion was all about Sabaeanism (astronomy) and Gnosis (science). Personally, I would rather we had a modern 'religion' that was based upon astronomy and science, than the vacuous ones we have now.


Oh, the other thing that was central to the Nazarene Church of Jesus was the ownership of a meteorite. This is why the holy Jewish day is Yom Kippur; why Simon was called Simon Peter Cephas; and why Jesus wore a ceremonial so-called Crown of Thorns. This was the same meteorite that was taken to Rome by Emperor Elagabalus of the early 3rd century. It would be nice to know what happened to this meteorite, after its short sojourn in Rome. A piece of it is supposed to be in the Kaba in Mecca, but the provenance of that stone is not verifiable.


As to motivation, I thought I explained that. It would be better if theists based their beliefs on reality instead of mythology. Especially since the religion of their great leader was originally astronomy and science.


.

Some of this is exactly what Mark has been saying, about Jebus and Saul, so he will be interested. He may be on vacation. I'll email him, and ask him to weigh in.

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03-03-2013, 12:43 PM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
"It would be better if theists based their beliefs on reality instead of mythology."

I appreciate the explanation but I disagree. Religions are based on gods. The particular name of any one of them is of no relevance to the fact that gods don't exist. Likewise, that a man who is called a god existed is also irrelevant to the fact that gods don't exist.

With regard to the statement I quoted above... why?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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03-03-2013, 12:48 PM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
(03-03-2013 11:53 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The Ten Commandments also came word for word, out of the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Mr. Ellis may mention that somewhere, I don't know. So I will read this with great interest. Of course there were ALREADY Semite settlements in Caanan when supposedly the Exodus happened, (as recorded on the Mernepteh stele), and that is well known among archaeologists. Of course the religions don't teach that. But I wholeheartedly agree, in general religious people have no clue about the real historical origins of their cult. Mark can deal with the NT Jebus stuff. But I will watch and read.

Have you read Friedmann or Schnieidewind ? (Richard Elliot Friedman or William M. Schniedewind PhD, Kershaw Chair of Ancient Eastern Mediterranean Studies and Professor of Biblical Studies and Northwest Semitic Languages at UCLA, author of "How the Bible Became a Book", also "The Word of God in Transition" and "Society and the Promise to David", Richard Elliott Freidmann, PhD, "Who Wrote the Bible".


Thanks Bucky,

Yes, the Ten Commandments did indeed come out of the Book of the Dead.

In addition,
The Nile turning red was from the Destruction of Mankind.
The Sermon on the Mount was from the Maxims of Ani.
The Lord's Prayer is from the Maxims of Ani.
Psalm 104 is from the Hymn to the Aten (or Aden)
Proverbs 22:20 is from the Instructions of Amenemopet
The Plagues are from the Prophesies of Nerferti and the Tempest Stele

etc: etc:

Funnily enough, as you point out much of this is acknowledged by religious academia (that the origins of the Torah were Egyptian). However, they don't trouble their flocks and followers about uncomfortable facts like this.

However, I go one stage further, and say the very characters themselves were Egyptian too. Jews and Christians never stop to wonder why Abraham, a mere shepherd, had 318 army officers and an army of 'unlimited manpower' (an army approx 30,000 strong). So how did this happen? Easy - Abraham was not a poor shepherd with a few starving sheep; instead he was a Shepherd King, one of the Hyksos Shepherd Kings of Lower Egypt. In the historical record, he was called Mam-Aybre. And his grandson would have been Pharaoh Yacoba (yes, there was a pharaoh called Jacob).

Once you understand this, the Torah begins to make sense. It was a tale of famous and powerful people - it was actually the Day Book (the diary) of the Hyksos pharaohs of Lower Egypt. That is why it was important, and why people revered it.

And again within this book we see that these people were Sabaeans (astrologer priests - literally Star Worshippers). In fact, the Jewish Sabbath was named after them - the Day of the Stars. Again, the worship was about the change in the Great Month - this time from Taurus to Aries in 1750 BC. This is why Moses had to kill 3,000 bull worshippers (Taurus), while his own people became known as shepherds (Aries). This is why the Hyksos were known as Shepherd Kings, the followers of Aries.



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03-03-2013, 01:39 PM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
(03-03-2013 08:32 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(21-03-2012 04:26 PM)Eternal Wrote:  Just read the full bumph and reviews. Basically.

Paul (saul) and Josephus are one and the same. If this was the case then you would think that somewhere in his writings Josephus would mention Jesus.

This is Ralph Ellis, and yes, I do claim and prove that Saul and Josephus were the same person. And yes, Josephus does mention Jesus on many occasions, as one might expect. Josephus narrates all of 1st century Judaean history, so he could hardly have missed out Jesus - unless Jesus was complete mythology... Oh, and by the way, I too am an Atheist who Thinks.


We've heard from many credible historians (such as Richard Carrier ) that Josephus' only reference to Jesus was a single paragraph in The Antiquities book 18 (besides the short mention of a "brother of Jesus" in book 20). I personally own one of the "Complete Works of Flavius Josephus", and despite having not read it in its entirety, I'm still pretty sure that this is the only source of Josephus' that mentioned Jesus. There's no description of Jesus as a leader (as you claim), or in fact much of anything historical of any sort about the man. Can you cite your claims?

It hardly matter if you are "an Atheist who Thinks"... there are plenty of atheists and agnostics (such as Bart Ehrman) who believe that Jesus existed. It doesn't matter what your religious views are, but what evidence you can present to back up your arguments.

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03-03-2013, 03:01 PM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
(03-03-2013 01:39 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  We've heard from many credible historians (such as Richard Carrier ) that Josephus' only reference to Jesus was a single paragraph in The Antiquities book 18 (besides the short mention of a "brother of Jesus" in book 20).

Can you cite your claims?


You are thinking of the Testamonium Flavium, which is a fraudulent 3rd century interpolation into the works of Josephus, penned by Eusebius. This is nothing to do with that.

Cleanse your mind of the pauper carpenter imagery.

We are looking for a guy called Jesus who was a king, a revolutionary, the leader of a new sect of Judaism, an Egyptian (Josephus calls him the Egyptian False Prophet), a Persian (the Wise Men were Persian priests), who became high priest (Hebrews 7), who married Mary Magdalene, who was crucified, who survived (he was taken down early), who was saved by Josephus (Flavius of Aramathaea).


We know who this guy was, because Josephus gives us his full history - he just does not formerly link him to the biblical tales. Who was he? He was Jesus of Gamala, the leader of the Forth Sect, and leader of the Jewish Revolt. Josephus also calls him Izas of Adiabene.


What has happened here, is that the gospel authors have draped sugar icing onto the history of this revolutionary, and formulated the gospel stories. Same guy, just a different (and often fanciful) version of his life.


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03-03-2013, 03:11 PM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
Hum. But now, do you have other sources than Josephus for this guy ? And how do you link him to Jesus the Gospel dude ? Is it one of many valid interpretations, as in "this could have been the way it was", or is it that you're pretty certain that that was the way it was ? Surely others have spotted this Jesus of Gamala dude before too ? Maybe hypothesized the link too ?
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03-03-2013, 03:32 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2013 03:47 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
Interesting almost all the fundie web sites call Mr. Ellis a "conspiracy theorist". All that really means is his view lay outside the orthodox norm. Some conspiracy theorists turn out to be correct. All that matters is evidence. Ellis seems to have a hell of a lot of "syncretic" evidence.
Besides Jesus of Gamala, we have already discussed in other threads Simon of Perea, and his remarkable similarity to Jebus. Just like Carrier, who takes his skepticism up a notch, and dares to battle with Ehrman, almost anyone who denies the historicty of Jebus is pushed aside as a loon. The discussion can be contimued in the Proof of Jesus thread, and Mr. Ellis may want to review it, and comment.
For me the lasting thing I discoverd there was Philo. Philo of Alexandria is thought to have actually been in Jerusalem at the time of Jebus' execution. He was a Jewish historian, and wrote about everything that he noticed. He says not one word about it, and all the attendant miraculous stuff. Nothing. He wrote and noted almost all the other noteworthy stuff going on. How and why would he not say anything at all about the whole business. Philo was living in or near Jerusalem when Jebus was born, Herod’s massacre, supposedly occurred. He was there when Jebus made his ruckus in the temple. He was there for the crucifixion and all the events that supposedly followed — earthquakes, the sun becoming dark at noon, the graves opening and the dead and long dead saints roaming about the place., supposedly seen by many, also when J.C. himself rose from the dead and in the presence of many witnesses ascended into heaven. Philo says nothing, heard nothing, wrote nothing, along with the fact he wrote about FAR more mundane every-day things. Most and of the highest importance is that if the central temple curtain was "rent" as the gospels say, ONE of the Jewish historians would have said something. The temple was the center of the culture. The entire city was built around what went on there. The economy of the city centered there. And somehow a "spontaneous" tear, from top to bottom of the curtain happens ? I don't think so. Obviously it's metaphor, in the gospels, but from the historians there is nothing. That is just too fishy.

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"And you quit footing the bill for these nations that are oil rich - we're paying for some of their *squirmishes* that have been going on for centuries" - Sarah Palin
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