Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
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03-03-2013, 03:46 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2013 03:57 PM by ralphellis.)
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
(03-03-2013 12:43 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  "It would be better if theists based their beliefs on reality instead of mythology."

I appreciate the explanation but I disagree. Religions are based on gods. The particular name of any one of them is of no relevance to the fact that gods don't exist. Likewise, that a man who is called a god existed is also irrelevant to the fact that gods don't exist.

With regard to the statement I quoted above... why?


People like their gods. Their gods have kept them happy for millennia. Its like a kid with an invisible friend, it is comforting for them.

The only problem is when their gods stifle gnosis (Catholic Christianity), or subjugate other populations (Islam). Its my guess that a religion based upon Egyptian Gnosto-Sabaeanism would not restrict a 21st century society. Gnostocism is, after all, what Rome called scientia, or science. And we know that the biblical Jesus did indeed use cutting edge 1st century science from the 1st century's foremost scientist - Hero of Alexandria - because the NT tells us so.

It is unlikely that we will eradicate religion in the next century, so a benign religion is surely preferable. As Strabo said (paraphrased): "Uneducated men think religion is true; wise men think religion is false; but kings think religion is useful"


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03-03-2013, 03:51 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2013 04:18 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
Josephus himself wished to demonstrate the great antiquity of the Jews, and thus identified the Hyksos with the Hebrews of the Bible. Hyksos was in fact probably an Egyptian term for “rulers of foreign lands” (heqa-khase), and it almost certainly designated the foreign dynasts rather than a whole nation.

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03-03-2013, 06:46 PM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
"~It is unlikely that we will eradicate religion in the next century, so a
benign religion is surely preferable. As Strabo said (paraphrased):
"Uneducated men think religion is true; wise men think religion is
false; but kings think religion is useful"

Thanks.

I would argue that religion is merely a tool used by many to justify their bigotries. If there's any truth to my argument at all, what would entice them to embrace an evidence based form of religion, which I presume you're attempting to foster?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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04-03-2013, 06:04 AM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
(03-03-2013 03:51 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Josephus himself wished to demonstrate the great antiquity of the Jews, and thus identified the Hyksos with the Hebrews of the Bible. Hyksos was in fact probably an Egyptian term for “rulers of foreign lands” (heqa-khase), and it almost certainly designated the foreign dynasts rather than a whole nation.

Indeed he did, as did Manetho (obliquely).

As to the Hyksos title, the name is spelt with a shepherd's crook, and Manetho specifically says it can mean 'Shepherd King', and so I think this is a correct translation. And doubly so, when you also recall the the Torah specifically calls the patriarchs 'shepherds'.

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04-03-2013, 06:29 AM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
(04-03-2013 06:04 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(03-03-2013 03:51 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Josephus himself wished to demonstrate the great antiquity of the Jews, and thus identified the Hyksos with the Hebrews of the Bible. Hyksos was in fact probably an Egyptian term for “rulers of foreign lands” (heqa-khase), and it almost certainly designated the foreign dynasts rather than a whole nation.

Indeed he did, as did Manetho (obliquely).

As to the Hyksos title, the name is spelt with a shepherd's crook, and Manetho specifically says it can mean 'Shepherd King', and so I think this is a correct translation. And doubly so, when you also recall the the Torah specifically calls the patriarchs 'shepherds'.

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Having looked at some of your writings and contentions, I will take whatever you say here with a grain of salt. I find many of your statement wildly speculative and based on the weakest of coincidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-03-2013, 06:33 AM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
(03-03-2013 06:46 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Thanks.

I would argue that religion is merely a tool used by many to justify their bigotries. If there's any truth to my argument at all, what would entice them to embrace an evidence based form of religion, which I presume you're attempting to foster?

It is very much a tool, used by individuals and also by vast institutions like the Catholic Church. And most of these institutions are merely self-serving, and have no regard for the fate of individuals or communities. And no regard for the truth, either.

Yet Rome sucessfully managed to control these spiritual urges through 'division and conquest' - so they tolerated many religions and deities that kept the people happy yet these groups could never unite to threaten the secular state machine. Emperor Constantine was the greatest fool of history, for he sought to unify these religions, and thereby (inadvertantly) brought into being a self-serving institution that usurped the Emperor himself (the pope merely being the new Emperor of Rome).

It would be far more preferable if the true evidence of Jesus and his family shook the Church so much that the secular state could wrest control back from the Church (all across the former Empire, not just in the Protestant states).. And it would be far more preferable if the remaining Churches became less dogmatic about their 'knowledge' and looked more towards science.


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And we know that Jesus originally supported the sciences, because of the report of the 'miracle' of turning water into wine. In reality this 'miracle' was a very famous trick jug manufactured by Hero of Alexandria in the mid 1st century AD. And so famous was this trick, that Hero made a dozen different versions of jugs that turned water into wine.

http://himedo.net/TheHopkinThomasProject...tion8.html

As Hero said:
"We may also pour in the water first, and then, stopping the vent, pour wine upon it, so as to pour out wine for some, wine and water for others, and mere water for those whom we wish to jest with."


Yes, this was merely a trick, a jest - a party-piece used by the aristocracy and royalty to amaze their friends. So why have theologians tried to intimate that this was a miraculous event? And why have historians not pointed out the blindingly obvious? Why the secular/spiritual 'conspiracy' to maintain the status quo?




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04-03-2013, 06:35 AM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
(03-03-2013 03:01 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(03-03-2013 01:39 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  We've heard from many credible historians (such as Richard Carrier ) that Josephus' only reference to Jesus was a single paragraph in The Antiquities book 18 (besides the short mention of a "brother of Jesus" in book 20).

Can you cite your claims?


You are thinking of the Testamonium Flavium, which is a fraudulent 3rd century interpolation into the works of Josephus, penned by Eusebius. This is nothing to do with that.

Cleanse your mind of the pauper carpenter imagery.

We are looking for a guy called Jesus who was a king, a revolutionary, the leader of a new sect of Judaism, an Egyptian (Josephus calls him the Egyptian False Prophet), a Persian (the Wise Men were Persian priests), who became high priest (Hebrews 7), who married Mary Magdalene, who was crucified, who survived (he was taken down early), who was saved by Josephus (Flavius of Aramathaea).


We know who this guy was, because Josephus gives us his full history - he just does not formerly link him to the biblical tales. Who was he? He was Jesus of Gamala, the leader of the Forth Sect, and leader of the Jewish Revolt. Josephus also calls him Izas of Adiabene.


What has happened here, is that the gospel authors have draped sugar icing onto the history of this revolutionary, and formulated the gospel stories. Same guy, just a different (and often fanciful) version of his life.


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"Josephus gives us his full history"... where? I asked for a citation, and all you did was expand upon your hypothetical story. Where can a person interested in researching this look up said story?

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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04-03-2013, 09:10 AM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
(04-03-2013 06:29 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 06:04 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  Indeed he did, as did Manetho (obliquely).

As to the Hyksos title, the name is spelt with a shepherd's crook, and Manetho specifically says it can mean 'Shepherd King', and so I think this is a correct translation. And doubly so, when you also recall the the Torah specifically calls the patriarchs 'shepherds'.

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Having looked at some of your writings and contentions, I will take whatever you say here with a grain of salt. I find many of your statement wildly speculative and based on the weakest of coincidence.
Cool story, bro. Needs more deadly.

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04-03-2013, 09:12 AM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
(04-03-2013 09:10 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 06:29 AM)Chas Wrote:  Having looked at some of your writings and contentions, I will take whatever you say here with a grain of salt. I find many of your statement wildly speculative and based on the weakest of coincidence.
Cool story, bro. Needs more deadly.


True. Consider

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-03-2013, 11:23 AM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
(04-03-2013 06:35 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  "Josephus gives us his full history"... where? I asked for a citation, and all you did was expand upon your hypothetical story. Where can a person interested in researching this look up said story?


Sorry, that is not possible, as there are far too many citations.

The best thing I can suggest is to download Josephus' 'Antiquities', 'Jewish War' and 'Life'. Then do a word-search for Jesus and Izates - the two names he uses for the biblical Jesus. Jesus is alternately called Jesus of Gamala, Jesus Sepphoris, or Izates of Adiabane (these being cited as the leader of the Jewish Revolt). The Whiston translation is best.

This is a sample text for 'Jewish War'.
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/2850/pg2850.txt

When reading, please bear in mind that Saul-Paul is the same person as Josephus. Thus when Josephus is persecuting Jesus Gamal-Sepphoris around Judaea, this is the same history as the biblical account of Saul-Paul persecuting the biblical Jesus (Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me....)

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