Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
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04-03-2013, 01:52 PM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
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(04-03-2013 01:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  I am not the one asserting that Freemasonry is ancient. You have not proved your case.

Modern Freemasonry was founded, at least partly, on the medieval masons' guilds that built the cathedrals.


You are the one denying that Fremasonry is ancient (which all Masons believe). So prove your case.

And doubly, prove also that Masonry is based upon cathedral building. If Masonry was based upon cathedral building - monuments dedicated to Jesus - then why is Jesus all but missing from the first three dregrees of Blue Masonry?! These would be very strange Christian cathedral builders indeed, who almost totally ignore the hero of Christianity.

It is clear from masonic ritual that this is a Solar cult, and not a Christian cult. Now you could say that, in churches being orientated east-west, Christianity is also a Solar cult. That is true, for Jesus was indeed the Sun of God (as it were)**, but Masonry is not looking to this particular royal Sun or Star, it is looking back to the Star of David and Solomon and beyond that too. This makes Masonry interesting for any historian, for there are echos of ancient ritual here that have been transmitted through the millennia into the modern age.


** All the pharaohs of Egypt were the sons of one god or another. It was a standard royal title.


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04-03-2013, 02:06 PM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
(04-03-2013 01:52 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  .

(04-03-2013 01:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  I am not the one asserting that Freemasonry is ancient. You have not proved your case.

Modern Freemasonry was founded, at least partly, on the medieval masons' guilds that built the cathedrals.


You are the one denying that Fremasonry is ancient (which all Masons believe). So prove your case.

And doubly, prove also that Masonry is based upon cathedral building. If Masonry was based upon cathedral building - monuments dedicated to Jesus - then why is Jesus all but missing from the first three dregrees of Blue Masonry?! These would be very strange Christian cathedral builders indeed, who almost totally ignore the hero of Christianity.

It is clear from masonic ritual that this is a Solar cult, and not a Christian cult. Now you could say that, in churches being orientated east-west, Christianity is also a Solar cult. That is true, for Jesus was indeed the Sun of God (as it were)**, but Masonry is not looking to this particular royal Sun or Star, it is looking back to the Star of David and Solomon and beyond that too. This makes Masonry interesting for any historian, for there are echos of ancient ritual here that have been transmitted through the millennia into the modern age.


** All the pharaohs of Egypt were the sons of one god or another. It was a standard royal title.


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You clearly do not understand burden of proof.

You are making the assertion that Freemasonry is ancient. You have not provided sufficient evidence that contradicts its founding in the Middle Ages. Its earliest text is from 1390, and that's just a poem about the craft. The earliest lodges date from perhaps the 16th century; not in Egypt, but in Scotland.

I have made no claim that Freemasonry is Christian or otherwise, so I don't see what you are going on about.

So carry on with your tenuous assertions, but I remain skeptical of their validity.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-03-2013, 10:18 PM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
Ralph - 10 books under your belt, a self proclaimed atheist and you don't understand the burden of proof.

May I redirect you to skeptical thinking 101

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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05-03-2013, 10:47 AM (This post was last modified: 05-03-2013 10:56 AM by ralphellis.)
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
(04-03-2013 02:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  You clearly do not understand burden of proof.

You are making the assertion that Freemasonry is ancient. You have not provided sufficient evidence that contradicts its founding in the Middle Ages. Its earliest text is from 1390, and that's just a poem about the craft. The earliest lodges date from perhaps the 16th century; not in Egypt, but in Scotland.

I have made no claim that Freemasonry is Christian or otherwise, so I don't see what you are going on about.

So carry on with your tenuous assertions, but I remain skeptical of their validity.


No, it is you who do not understand the burden of proof. If you said the Moon does not exist, it is for you to prove that assertion, and not for me to prove that it does exist. It is not for me to prove something that is held as axiomatic, which the ancient origins of Masonry are in masonic circles. And there are many masonic links to Egypt, including the phrases and recognition words (which were 'unknown' in the era you are asserting for Masonic origins.)


Besides, there is no point me adding further. I have already given you several reasons why Masonry is ancient, which you do not even have the courtesy to discuss. If your rejection of evidence is that superficial, there is no point in me providing further proofs.

As they say in the Craft, "there are none so blind as those who will not see".


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05-03-2013, 07:10 PM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
(05-03-2013 10:47 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(04-03-2013 02:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  You clearly do not understand burden of proof.

You are making the assertion that Freemasonry is ancient. You have not provided sufficient evidence that contradicts its founding in the Middle Ages. Its earliest text is from 1390, and that's just a poem about the craft. The earliest lodges date from perhaps the 16th century; not in Egypt, but in Scotland.

I have made no claim that Freemasonry is Christian or otherwise, so I don't see what you are going on about.

So carry on with your tenuous assertions, but I remain skeptical of their validity.


No, it is you who do not understand the burden of proof. If you said the Moon does not exist, it is for you to prove that assertion, and not for me to prove that it does exist. It is not for me to prove something that is held as axiomatic, which the ancient origins of Masonry are in masonic circles.

No, that's not correct. The burden of proof is put on the person making a positive claim, not the person disputing something held as "popular" or "axiomatic". And I don't think you understand what is held as axiomatic, either... it must be "universally" held as true. Just because a certain group holds something as indisputably true (such as new-agers holding the truth of horoscopes as being beyond question) doesn't make it "axiomatic". New-agers would have to prove the truth of horoscopes.

So if you claimed that the moon does not exist, that would make you a skeptic. Skeptics don't hold the burden of proof because they hold claims as untrue or unverified until evidence has been presented, and thus they hold the negative position (a "no" or "not true" by default). The existence of the moon must be proven, not disproven.

Your denial doesn't surprise me, as nearly anyone in nearly any debate would prefer not to hold the burden of proof. But if something is actually true, the burden ought not to be so cumbersome because the evidence is strong enough. If it isn't, perhaps it ought not to be believed.

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05-03-2013, 11:25 PM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
Then again, if zee dude hath madeth the money off ten books of kookiness, then for him to suddenly see the light of who's got the burden of proof doesn't make financial sense Tongue
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05-03-2013, 11:31 PM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
(05-03-2013 11:25 PM)morondog Wrote:  Then again, if zee dude hath madeth the money off ten books of kookiness, then for him to suddenly see the light of who's got the burden of proof doesn't make financial sense Tongue

Yeah. I feel it's necessary to defend my position, but I'm fully aware that Mr. (or Dr.?) Ellis has made his views public, and so the amount of cognitive dissonance he'd feel would be unbearable... he'd have too much to lose to give up his position, no matter how strong the evidence against it was. It wouldn't be in his financial interest or beneficial to his self-esteem to change his mind. But still... the debate is always valuable for the watching crowd.

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06-03-2013, 12:28 AM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
Ralph - Coming to an atheist forum might not have been the best move for your ego.

We are a nice bunch of skeptical atheists with a few trollish theists and a couple well thinking theists.
But you sir are not skeptical, nor an atheist, nor very insightful, nor very knowledgeable about anything beyond what you've been mired in for the past 30 years.
Take a peek out of the sand you've had your head buried in.

Use your time here as a wake up call.
Re-evaluate your epistemology.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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06-03-2013, 03:40 AM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2013 04:53 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
Hi Ralph,

personally I'm very excited you are here. I don't know a lot about you, but the very fact you've written 10 books about the history gives you a degree of credibility.

I'm sure you are very used to copping some criticism. I probably don't need to ask you to please keep posting...because I so want to pick your brain. I've written a book about the history of Christianity, after about 7 years of studying the topic, but it's yet to be published. I'd love to bounce some ideas off you.

Where to start?

Well....some common ground....I too believe that Jesus, if he ever existed, was a political activist knocked off by the Romans.

You think "Paul" and Josephus were the same person? Wow! Um...never heard that before. Your evidence? Here's my 2c worth...I think Paul was a Roman government agent. I can provide some circumstantial evidence for that if you are interested. I think Josephus helped create the gospels, but post circa 70 CE, which probably was when Paul (who I don't think was the same person as Josephus) was dead or no longer doing his thing.

In my opinion, Paul and Josephus are clearly 2 different authors. Josephus was an historian, a pragmatist, a realist. When one reads Josephus, one gets straight forward factual commentary.
"Paul" was a propagandist (as was Josephus), but he was also a dreamer, deluded, manipulative, anxious , irrational, inconsistent, pig headed, and a bore. To read Paul is to go on an emotional and mental roller coaster ride...and never quite understand what the fuck he's on about.

Now ...it could be argued (?by you) that Josephus created the Paul character...if that was so....Josephus was a literary genius...and I don't think he was.

I think Paul and Josephus were both working for the Roman government....both aiming to undermine Jewish messianic dreams and thereby quell Jewish militants, but to date I have failed to consider they may have been one and the same person. What say you?
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06-03-2013, 04:23 PM
RE: Ralph Ellis. You guys heard of him? Making BIG claims.
I'd never heard about Josephus and Saul (Paul) being the same person.

Will have to look further into it....

Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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