Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
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24-05-2014, 03:29 PM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2014 03:37 PM by Jeremy E Walker.)
Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
Kalam

Premise 1

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
a. something cannot come from nothing. - René Descartes > Meditations on First Philosophy

Let us start here.
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24-05-2014, 03:33 PM
RE: Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
(24-05-2014 03:29 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Kalam

Premise 1

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
a. something cannot come from nothing.

Let us start here.

The use of the phrase "begins to exist" is a loaded special pleading fallacy.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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24-05-2014, 03:43 PM
RE: Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
(24-05-2014 03:33 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(24-05-2014 03:29 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Kalam

Premise 1

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
a. something cannot come from nothing.

Let us start here.

The use of the phrase "begins to exist" is a loaded special pleading fallacy.

[Image: tumblr_mau75lfrXh1rsxhev.gif]
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24-05-2014, 03:50 PM
RE: Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
Something CAN come from nothing. That is why I am here and why you are too!

In fact Jeremy you too believe everything came from nothing. Just in a different way.

God existed and there was nothing. He created everything from "nothing" and there from you believe everything came from nothing.

Now god does not exist really but either way. Everything came from nothing either way.

We already have an explanation for what caused the big bang, now its just a matter of figuring out what the nature of that thing is and that is the final stone left for the full explanation of where the universe came from, how and why.


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24-05-2014, 03:53 PM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2014 04:14 PM by rampant.a.i..)
Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
(24-05-2014 03:29 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Kalam

Premise 1

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
a. something cannot come from nothing. - René Descartes > Meditations on First Philosophy

Let us start here.

(23-05-2014 06:16 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  "Begins to exist" is also semantic nonsense, and nothing has ever been witnessed "beginning to exist" in the same way as the universe.

At what point does a chair "begin to exist" as a chair? When the 2nd leg is attached? 3? 4? When the wood is cut into parts for the chair?

How about a bicycle? Does it "begin to exist" sometime during when the frame is welded together from component parts ? When the wheels and chain are attached, before it has pedals?

And this:

(24-05-2014 12:30 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  Correct. They formulate a hypothesis then test that hypothesis

An hypothesis that is not falsifiable is by definition unscientific.

The KCA doesn't qualify. Here's why:


This is untestable. We will never be able to empirically observe anything "come into existence" the same way the universe came into existence.



The KCA employs a loaded question, and does in fact make an assertion (however subtly) that the laws of causality must have applied prior to causality. It relies on that assumption to reach the conclusion. It defines "Begins to exist" as <creation ex nilho> not any other form of "beginning to exist" and is an equivocation.

It begs the question and invokes special pleading to avoid infinite regress.


It's exposing the hidden premises of the KCA.

Every recombination of existing matter has a cause [within in the universe as currently observed]

And therefore no representative of "beginning to exist," ) which remains undefined) in the same way the universe beginning.

In addition, on the quantum level, "things that exist have causes" does not traditionally apply. See Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle for example.

There is no reason to assume causality follows in a linear fashion prior to causes and events within space time.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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24-05-2014, 04:04 PM
RE: Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
(24-05-2014 03:43 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(24-05-2014 03:33 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  The use of the phrase "begins to exist" is a loaded special pleading fallacy.

[Image: tumblr_mau75lfrXh1rsxhev.gif]

Yeah. Deal with it.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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24-05-2014, 04:34 PM
RE: Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
[Image: dafuq_did_i_just_read_meme.jpg]

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24-05-2014, 04:36 PM
RE: Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
Another thread on this? Maybe the mods should start splitting off all the derailed threads and dumping the KCA argument in here.
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24-05-2014, 04:43 PM
RE: Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
(24-05-2014 03:29 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Kalam

Premise 1

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
a. something cannot come from nothing. - René Descartes > Meditations on First Philosophy

Let us start here.

Sure let us start here. Doesn't seem either self-evident or obvious to me so I don't admit it as a sound premise.

#sigh
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24-05-2014, 04:46 PM
RE: Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
(24-05-2014 04:36 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  Another thread on this? Maybe the mods should start splitting off all the derailed threads and dumping the KCA argument in here.

.... and remove the first 'and' from the thread title. Dodgy

Τί ἐστιν ἀλήθεια?
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