Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
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24-05-2014, 06:48 PM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2014 06:52 PM by rampant.a.i..)
Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
(24-05-2014 06:34 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(24-05-2014 06:15 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Okay, then what is the best possible phrase???

"This 'argument' is a load of bullshit."

That phrase would be "everything that exists," although it would still tell us nothing about the conditions prior to anything we can conceive of, even with theoretical physics, existing or null existing.

Those terms and their concepts cease to function.

Hawking himself has stated prior to the singularity, physical laws break down, and logic, physics, and time itself no longer applies.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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24-05-2014, 07:05 PM
RE: Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
(24-05-2014 06:48 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(24-05-2014 06:34 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  "This 'argument' is a load of bullshit."

That phrase would be "everything that exists," although it would still tell us nothing about the conditions prior to anything we can conceive of, even with theoretical physics, existing or null existing.

Those terms and their concepts cease to function.

Hawking himself has stated prior to the singularity, physical laws break down, and logic, physics, and time itself no longer applies.


Of course, "everything that exists" would necessarily include this mythical "creator deity" that they are hiding behind their premises, which is precisely why they add in the special-pleading qualifier "begins to exist."

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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24-05-2014, 07:18 PM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2014 07:41 PM by rampant.a.i..)
Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
(24-05-2014 07:05 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(24-05-2014 06:48 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  That phrase would be "everything that exists," although it would still tell us nothing about the conditions prior to anything we can conceive of, even with theoretical physics, existing or null existing.

Those terms and their concepts cease to function.

Hawking himself has stated prior to the singularity, physical laws break down, and logic, physics, and time itself no longer applies.


Of course, "everything that exists" would necessarily include this mythical "creator deity" that they are hiding behind their premises, which is precisely why they add in the special-pleading qualifier "begins to exist."

Precisely. Which is why the presumption <some things exist eternally> and <some things are not caused> is implicit in premise 1, without support.

The argument is designed to beg the question, so and allow for a special pleading premise "established" illogically by the argument, to be advanced for <unspecified cause> to be Allah, Yahweh, or whatever.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
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24-05-2014, 07:22 PM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2014 07:25 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
What a fucking dishonest lying jerk. Germy Wanker agreed in the other thread that cause precedes effect. He made a fool of himself. So what does he do ? Start another thread, and restate the same crap from the other thread. Kalam presumes a temporal environment. It's complete bullshit on that basis alone. Who are these "philosophers of time" you speak of Germy ? William L. Craig ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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24-05-2014, 07:31 PM
RE: Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
(24-05-2014 07:22 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Who are these "philosophers of time" you speak of Germy ? William L. Craig ?

Of COURSE! How many times has he copypasta'd from, and linked to, the UNreasonablefaith website?

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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24-05-2014, 07:37 PM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2014 10:21 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
Carroll completely debunks both the Grand Master Lying Jerk, and his little suck-wad, Germey.
See : 37:00, 1:20:00, and 1:44:00 if you don't want to watch the whole thing. He explains why the words Germey (and Craig) make no sense in the context they use them, (as we pointed out to him in the thread, yesterday).




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24-05-2014, 07:42 PM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2014 08:31 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
(24-05-2014 07:37 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Carroll completely debunks both the Grand Master Lying Jerk, and his little suck-wad, Germy.




I'm getting an error msg from the video.


EDIT: Hmmm... problem with my browser.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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24-05-2014, 07:55 PM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2014 08:11 PM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
(24-05-2014 06:48 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  That phrase would be "everything that exists," although it would still tell us nothing about the conditions prior to anything we can conceive of, even with theoretical physics, existing or null existing.


In order to make that clear from the outset, it would be best to describe the statement as "all objects and properties that we know to exist have a cause (excluding quantum events)." The rest of the KCA immediately loses its footing if the first premise is worded as such.

The reason I didn't list it as "everything" is that those with particularly dishonest or naive inclinations may include causality as part of "everything" since we know causality to "exist," and that therefore according to that premise, causality must have had a cause. It's already been gone over that such a declaration is completely nonsensical, but this step skips having to explain even that to somebody that fails to realize how inane such a conclusion is since they won't be able to bring it up in the first place.

Causality does not "exist" in the traditional sense since it is not an object or property but a physical law, it defines the relations and interactions between objects and properties which are subject to it. Its subjects have causes, but not the law itself.

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24-05-2014, 08:15 PM
RE: Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
First off, the universe exists.
We observe the universe expanding.
Working backwards we can plot and also detect what the conditions were like in the very early stages of the universe.
It is rational to assume given the evidence we observe that all matter & energy once existed as a very unified field of "something"

As far as we have been able to observe, the universe was never "nothing", so it never began to exist because you can't point to a time when it didn't exist.

Christianity began to exist and we have a really good idea what caused it.
Answer: smart people who were deluded and greedy enough to take advantage of a fearful and gullible public.

At least, that's how I see it

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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24-05-2014, 09:21 PM
RE: Rampant and Jeremy and the Kalam
LOL Jermy Wanker has already fled his new debate with Tadlock. HoboLaughat

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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