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21-10-2014, 12:40 PM
RE: Random Bible Post
(21-10-2014 12:27 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If you're willing to go outside of strict Biblical canon, he fights demons. On the moon. Bonus points: he does it before his alleged birth!

That's part of Carrier's mythicist hypothesis; the early belief in a spiritual being undergoing trials in the heavenly realms that was later portrayed as a historical figure. Interesting stuff.

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21-10-2014, 01:22 PM
RE: Random Bible Post
(20-10-2014 01:37 PM)Impulse Wrote:  I stumbled upon this verse while looking at something else:

Luke 2:5 Wrote:And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

I read this along time ago, but when I just read it again, I thought it was odd that Jesus, being God, would grow in wisdom. So I wondered what the context of this was and I looked it up:

Luke 2:41-52
Quote:The Boy Jesus at the Temple

41 Every year Jesus’ parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover. 42 When he was twelve years old, they went up to the festival, according to the custom. 43 After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44 Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45 When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46 After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”

49 “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?”[f] 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

51 Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.
So first Jesus is disobedient toward his parents. So much for "honor thy father and mother".

Then he says "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" when they later find him. But he's God, didn't he know that they did not know?

And then, of course it ends with him growing in wisdom AND in favor with God... er, himself. What a guy, patting himself on the back for learning, um, knowing, um displaying his infinite knowledge to everyone.

And, by the way, since Jesus was a completely unknown person at that time, why was anyone recording what he did at 12 years old? Moreover, since we know that the gospels were all written long after Jesus died by no one that knew him, why would the authors have known anything about what he did at age 12? (Rhetorical.)

This is similar to the Jesus out in the desert thread. How did the authors know what he said in the desert and in the Garden of Gethsemane when everyone was asleep. The authors are taking literary license.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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21-10-2014, 01:54 PM
RE: Random Bible Post
(21-10-2014 05:56 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  That's because you're reading Luke. The first three Gospels don't actually posit that Jesus was God; he's a man. The whole notion of Jesus actually being God didn't come about until several decades later when John was written.
Good point. I doubt the average Christian would believe you if you told them that, but at least the Bible itself shows it - not that most of them have read it. Dodgy

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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21-10-2014, 01:56 PM
RE: Random Bible Post
(21-10-2014 11:43 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  To grow in stature involves the accretion of bone and soft tissue. Where did this come from in the case of Jesus? When Jesus ate food, what happened to it? Was it digested and metabolized as it is in the rest of us? Were the constituents then incorporated into the body of Jesus? Can ordinary meat and vegetables become divine?

It can also mean figurative stature though as in importance or reputation.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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21-10-2014, 01:58 PM
RE: Random Bible Post
(21-10-2014 01:22 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  This is similar to the Jesus out in the desert thread. How did the authors know what he said in the desert and in the Garden of Gethsemane when everyone was asleep. The authors are taking literary license.

Yes, I agree. Believers would probably say God inspired it. But for God to inspire such specific details where absolutely none would otherwise be known, it's amazing how many mistakes he made.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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21-10-2014, 02:01 PM
Re: RE: Random Bible Post
(21-10-2014 12:27 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If you're willing to go outside of strict Biblical canon, he fights demons. On the moon.

For the likes of the uneducated, like me, in theology could you elaborate about the moon thing please.

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21-10-2014, 03:12 PM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2014 03:15 PM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Random Bible Post
(21-10-2014 02:01 PM)TubbyTubby Wrote:  
(21-10-2014 12:27 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If you're willing to go outside of strict Biblical canon, he fights demons. On the moon.

For the likes of the uneducated, like me, in theology could you elaborate about the moon thing please.

Don't know about the moon thing, but I just finished reading The Gospel of Nicodemus, one of the apocryphal books. In it, the dead that rise from the grave after Jesus is crucified give their testimony of seeing Jesus in hell. Jesus grabs Adam, and many other saints and leads them to heaven. Beelzebub is the prince of hell and Satan is subject to his dominion and put into the room of Adam.

I think many scholars consider Beelzebub to be Hades, perhaps it made the early bishops that created the biblical canon a bit too uncomfortable paralleling the Greek depictions of hell.
It made the myth-making process a little too obvious.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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21-10-2014, 07:43 PM
RE: Random Bible Post
What about the one where Jesus arm wrestles Satan for the last bagel bite?
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22-10-2014, 08:49 AM
RE: Random Bible Post
[Image: fateliesonarmwrestling-210338.jpeg]

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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22-10-2014, 09:07 AM
RE: Random Bible Post
(21-10-2014 02:01 PM)TubbyTubby Wrote:  
(21-10-2014 12:27 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If you're willing to go outside of strict Biblical canon, he fights demons. On the moon.

For the likes of the uneducated, like me, in theology could you elaborate about the moon thing please.

I don't know a lot about the source material. It's something I learned about from a video by Richard Carrier.

Anyway, the short version is, around 20 BCE or so, there was a story about Jesus battling demons. The Jewish cosmology is sort of a weird thing where they believed there was water suspended above the sky in something called "the firmament", and the heavens were situated inside this (which is why we can see the stars). There were multiple celestial layers, each corresponding to a different body, the moon being one of them. It didn't actually say that Jesus fought the demon on the moon (although, admittedly that would be pretty rad), but he fought them in that layer. What that actually means, I have no idea. Maybe he was flying in the sky around the same height as the moon, or something. It's all very weird.

Still, it's one data point Carrier uses to support that there were Jesus myths before Jesus allegedly existed on earth.
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