Random Number generators and conciousness
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05-07-2017, 11:43 AM
Random Number generators and conciousness
On September 11, 2001, the World Trade Centers were destroyed in a globally well-known terrorist attack. The entire world was focused on that singular event for the entire day, and the days immediately following. There was no air traffic permitted over the entire United States, with the exception of military aircraft. Almost every business closed, and people went home, glued to their televisions.

What the 7 billion people of the planet did not know was that there were computers that were stationed all around the world to generate random (Chaotic) number sequences that ran 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. There were dozens of them pumping out intentionally designed chaotic information for studying random
behavior, and pumping all of that chaotic data to Princeton, and they suddenly started deviating from this randomness. The instruments inexplicably began producing order out of Chaos*, to a mathematically impossible degree, on a Quantum Scale, to a planetary scale, all over the planet, all at the same time, and the formal hypothesis is that Consciousness, on a planetary scale, caused this effect, from a Quantum Scale, to a planetary scale.


Here quoted from a paper by Princeton researcher R. D. Nelson, "These deviations also correlate with a quantitative index of daily news intensity. Focused analyses of data recorded on September 11, 2001, show departures from random expectation in several statistics."

The entire pdf is currently available at: http://noosphere.princeton.edu/papers/gcpfpl.pdf

On September 11, 2001, during the terrorist attacks, and immediately following, the z score of all of the random number generators jumps to +2; in mathematical terms, absolutely impossible. Against the normal background noise, the certainty is 99.8%. Later in the day, when the news has spread worldwide, that z score jumps to 3.8, and over that 7 hour period an impossible 6.5 (the graph shown only extends to 4.0) - an impossibility in terms of randomness. A z value of 6.5 designates certain order out of chaos. If you read the paper carefully, you will note that the z score actually falls into the negative, indicating greater randomness (more chaotic) with even greater significance the day before the attacks.

What does all of this actually mean? It means that there is quantifiable proof that is hard data, reproducible, peer reviewed, and mathematically evaluated to the following statement – e.g., the hypothesis that Consciousness on a global scale effects order on a Quantum to a planetary scale is confirmed. When the people of the world focus on something it changes the randomness of the local (Earth proximity extending out to we do not know how far) environment such that the entire system of nature itself, the physics of everything - becomes more ordered. It states that chaos, true randomness, decreases measurably, significantly, and reproducibly to a degree that is impossible to occur spontaneously. By having a large number of people focus on a thing, we can quantify an impossibly large change in the background randomness of nature itself, from a Quantum Scale all the way up to a planetary macroscopic scale. Furthermore, we can quantify the fact to an impossibly large degree that the focus of attention to a specific event precedes the actual event by a macroscopic scale of several days. The awareness of the general population of the planet is that the event will occur in the future, days before the events occur. Foreknowledge is for the first time measured and quantified, and affects all of nature from a Quantum Scale to a planetary macroscopic scale. Consciousness is measured and quantified to affect all of nature from a Quantum Scale to a planetary macroscopic scale. Consciousness is measured and quantified to affect both order and chaos in nature from a Quantum Scale to a planetary macroscopic scale.

If you have issues with this interpretation, keep in mind that this is explicitly stated by the authors who are from the Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering at Princeton University and published in a peer reviewed scientific journal. A counter argument requires more than an ideological disagreement. This particular case has been argued for many years with no solid refutable argument emerging from the scientific community. It remains unanswered but well characterized.


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05-07-2017, 11:47 AM
RE: Random Number generators and conciousness
Why is this in the Atheism and Theism section?

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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05-07-2017, 11:50 AM
RE: Random Number generators and conciousness
(05-07-2017 11:47 AM)Anjele Wrote:  Why is this in the Atheism and Theism section?

Last I checked atheists believe consciousness is localized in the brain and can be reduced to mundane electro chemical processes, I'm just trying to understand how this phenomenon happens, enlighten me.
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05-07-2017, 11:56 AM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2017 12:22 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Random Number generators and conciousness
Well it's obvious. It MUST be Jebus.

Sorry. From the study :
"Contextual analyses indicate that these cannot be attributed to identifiable physical interactions and may be attributable to some unidentified interaction associated with human consciousness.

Key words: physical random systems, correlations in random data, lies quantum randomness, consciousness, global events, statistical anomalies"

They forgot "may" in the KEY words. There is no posited mechanism of interaction. "Some unidentified interaction" does not equate to "human consciousness".

Too bad. Your bullshit is nothing but bullshit.
"If you have issues with this interpretation, keep in mind that this is explicitly stated by the authors who are from the Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering at Princeton University" ... is the argumentum ad vericundiam fallacy, (the argument from authority). They are NOT authorities in ANYTHING other than engineering. They have posited no mechanism. Consciousness is NOT their field. They have proposed a mechanism (nor demonstrated) their stupid CORRELATION. Correlation is not causation (Grade 1). Nice try.

FAIL.

It "may" also have been the FSM got his noodley appendages into outlets simultaneously, and that's what happened.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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05-07-2017, 12:04 PM
RE: Random Number generators and conciousness
(05-07-2017 11:43 AM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  On September 11, 2001, the World Trade Centers were destroyed in a globally well-known terrorist attack. The entire world was focused on that singular event for the entire day, and the days immediately following. There was no air traffic permitted over the entire United States, with the exception of military aircraft. Almost every business closed, and people went home, glued to their televisions.

What the 7 billion people of the planet did not know was that there were computers that were stationed all around the world to generate random (Chaotic) number sequences that ran 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. There were dozens of them pumping out intentionally designed chaotic information for studying random
behavior, and pumping all of that chaotic data to Princeton, and they suddenly started deviating from this randomness. The instruments inexplicably began producing order out of Chaos*, to a mathematically impossible degree, on a Quantum Scale, to a planetary scale, all over the planet, all at the same time, and the formal hypothesis is that Consciousness, on a planetary scale, caused this effect, from a Quantum Scale, to a planetary scale.


Here quoted from a paper by Princeton researcher R. D. Nelson, "These deviations also correlate with a quantitative index of daily news intensity. Focused analyses of data recorded on September 11, 2001, show departures from random expectation in several statistics."

The entire pdf is currently available at: http://noosphere.princeton.edu/papers/gcpfpl.pdf

On September 11, 2001, during the terrorist attacks, and immediately following, the z score of all of the random number generators jumps to +2; in mathematical terms, absolutely impossible. Against the normal background noise, the certainty is 99.8%. Later in the day, when the news has spread worldwide, that z score jumps to 3.8, and over that 7 hour period an impossible 6.5 (the graph shown only extends to 4.0) - an impossibility in terms of randomness. A z value of 6.5 designates certain order out of chaos. If you read the paper carefully, you will note that the z score actually falls into the negative, indicating greater randomness (more chaotic) with even greater significance the day before the attacks.

What does all of this actually mean? It means that there is quantifiable proof that is hard data, reproducible, peer reviewed, and mathematically evaluated to the following statement – e.g., the hypothesis that Consciousness on a global scale effects order on a Quantum to a planetary scale is confirmed. When the people of the world focus on something it changes the randomness of the local (Earth proximity extending out to we do not know how far) environment such that the entire system of nature itself, the physics of everything - becomes more ordered. It states that chaos, true randomness, decreases measurably, significantly, and reproducibly to a degree that is impossible to occur spontaneously. By having a large number of people focus on a thing, we can quantify an impossibly large change in the background randomness of nature itself, from a Quantum Scale all the way up to a planetary macroscopic scale. Furthermore, we can quantify the fact to an impossibly large degree that the focus of attention to a specific event precedes the actual event by a macroscopic scale of several days. The awareness of the general population of the planet is that the event will occur in the future, days before the events occur. Foreknowledge is for the first time measured and quantified, and affects all of nature from a Quantum Scale to a planetary macroscopic scale. Consciousness is measured and quantified to affect all of nature from a Quantum Scale to a planetary macroscopic scale. Consciousness is measured and quantified to affect both order and chaos in nature from a Quantum Scale to a planetary macroscopic scale.

If you have issues with this interpretation, keep in mind that this is explicitly stated by the authors who are from the Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering at Princeton University and published in a peer reviewed scientific journal. A counter argument requires more than an ideological disagreement. This particular case has been argued for many years with no solid refutable argument emerging from the scientific community. It remains unanswered but well characterized.

Global Consciousness Project

Independent scientists Edwin May and James Spottiswoode conducted an analysis of the data around the 11 September 2001 events and concluded there was no statistically significant change in the randomness of the GCP data during the attacks and the apparent significant deviation reported by Nelson and Radin existed only in their chosen time window. Spikes and fluctuations are to be expected in any random distribution of data, and there is no set time frame for how close a spike has to be to a given event for the GCP to say they have found a correlation. Wolcotte Smith said "A couple of additional statistical adjustments would have to be made to determine if there really was a spike in the numbers," referencing the data related to September 11, 2001. Similarly, Jeffrey D. Scargle believes unless both Bayesian and classical p-value analysis agree and both show the same anomalous effects, the kind of result GCP proposes will not be generally accepted.

In 2003, a New York Times article concluded "All things considered at this point, the stock market seems a more reliable gauge of the national—if not the global—emotional resonance."

According to The Age, Nelson concedes "the data, so far, is not solid enough for global consciousness to be said to exist at all. It is not possible, for example, to look at the data and predict with any accuracy what (if anything) the eggs may be responding to."

Robert Matthews said that while it was "the most sophisticated attempt yet" to prove psychokinesis existed, the unreliability of significant events to cause statistically significant spikes meant that "the only conclusion to emerge from the Global Consciousness Project so far is that data without a theory is as meaningless as words without a narrative".


Looks like a bunch of post-hoc hand-waving to me. Drinking Beverage

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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05-07-2017, 12:08 PM
RE: Random Number generators and conciousness
Quote:Roger D. Nelson...His work integrates science and spirituality
Quote:The Global Consciousness Project (GCP, also called the EGG Project) is a parapsychology experiment ...

Quote:According to The Age, Nelson concedes "the data, so far, is not solid enough for global consciousness to be said to exist at all. It is not possible, for example, to look at the data and predict with any accuracy what (if anything) the eggs may be responding to."

But, for the sake of argument, lets assume there is a global consciousness.
How does that disprove that every individual human being has an individual consciousness based on electricity and chemistry? Please enlighten me Drinking Beverage

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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05-07-2017, 12:19 PM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2017 12:26 PM by mmhm1234.)
RE: Random Number generators and conciousness
(05-07-2017 11:56 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Well it's obvious. It MUST be Jebus.

Sorry. From the study :
"Contextual analyses indicate that these cannot be attributed to identifiable physical interactions and may be attributable to some unidentified interaction associated with human consciousness.

Key words: physical random systems, correlations in random data, lies quantum randomness, consciousness, global events, statistical anomalies"

They forgot "may" in the KEY words. There is no posited mechanism of interaction. "Some unidentified interaction" does not equate to "human consciousness".

Too bad. Your bullshit is nothing but bullshit.
"If you have issues with this interpretation, keep in mind that this is explicitly stated by the authors who are from the Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering at Princeton University" ... is the argumentum ad vericundiam fallacy, (the argument from authority). They are NOT authorities in ANYTHING other than engineering. They have posited no mechanism. Consciousness is NOT their field. They have proposed a mechanism (nor demonstrated) their stupid CORRELATION. Correlation is not causation (Grade 1). Nice try.

FAIL.

So, to sum up your mad tirade (something that happens when your cognitive belief system is threatened) you have NO rebuttal other than ad hominem attacks or incoherent attempts to label what I said as a 'logical fallacy'. The irony is your entire cognitive belief system is an appeal to authority...bwahahahaha!!! YOU don't understand basic statistics such as a Z score, so the problem is you are dismissing something based on ignorance (similar to what religious fanatics do such as- "I don't understand physics therefore it can't be true)

Neuroscientists and biologists have failed to defined consciousness...move along. Also, i never mentioned anything about 'Jebus' you are just so obsessed with him and God that it bubbles up through you mind out of nowhere!!
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05-07-2017, 12:23 PM
RE: Random Number generators and conciousness
(05-07-2017 12:08 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
Quote:Roger D. Nelson...His work integrates science and spirituality
Quote:The Global Consciousness Project (GCP, also called the EGG Project) is a parapsychology experiment ...

Quote:According to The Age, Nelson concedes "the data, so far, is not solid enough for global consciousness to be said to exist at all. It is not possible, for example, to look at the data and predict with any accuracy what (if anything) the eggs may be responding to."

But, for the sake of argument, lets assume there is a global consciousness.
How does that disprove that every individual human being has an individual consciousness based on electricity and chemistry? Please enlighten me Drinking Beverage

The burden of proof is on the neuroscientists and biologists who claim consciousness is localized in the brain...they need to explain how such an impossibility happened.
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05-07-2017, 12:24 PM
RE: Random Number generators and conciousness
Looks like a bunch of post-hoc hand-waving to me. Drinking Beverage
[/quote]

You need to actually have a counter argument, as I stated in the final paragraph. Otherwise you are engaged in a belief system and your argument (or superstition) can be brushed aside.
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05-07-2017, 12:27 PM
RE: Random Number generators and conciousness
(05-07-2017 11:43 AM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  On September 11, 2001, the World Trade Centers were destroyed in a globally well-known terrorist attack. The entire world was focused on that singular event for the entire day, and the days immediately following. There was no air traffic permitted over the entire United States, with the exception of military aircraft. Almost every business closed, and people went home, glued to their televisions.

What the 7 billion people of the planet did not know was that there were computers that were stationed all around the world to generate random (Chaotic) number sequences that ran 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. There were dozens of them pumping out intentionally designed chaotic information for studying random
behavior, and pumping all of that chaotic data to Princeton, and they suddenly started deviating from this randomness. The instruments inexplicably began producing order out of Chaos*, to a mathematically impossible degree, on a Quantum Scale, to a planetary scale, all over the planet, all at the same time, and the formal hypothesis is that Consciousness, on a planetary scale, caused this effect, from a Quantum Scale, to a planetary scale.


Here quoted from a paper by Princeton researcher R. D. Nelson, "These deviations also correlate with a quantitative index of daily news intensity. Focused analyses of data recorded on September 11, 2001, show departures from random expectation in several statistics."

The entire pdf is currently available at: http://noosphere.princeton.edu/papers/gcpfpl.pdf

On September 11, 2001, during the terrorist attacks, and immediately following, the z score of all of the random number generators jumps to +2; in mathematical terms, absolutely impossible. Against the normal background noise, the certainty is 99.8%. Later in the day, when the news has spread worldwide, that z score jumps to 3.8, and over that 7 hour period an impossible 6.5 (the graph shown only extends to 4.0) - an impossibility in terms of randomness. A z value of 6.5 designates certain order out of chaos. If you read the paper carefully, you will note that the z score actually falls into the negative, indicating greater randomness (more chaotic) with even greater significance the day before the attacks.

What does all of this actually mean? It means that there is quantifiable proof that is hard data, reproducible, peer reviewed, and mathematically evaluated to the following statement – e.g., the hypothesis that Consciousness on a global scale effects order on a Quantum to a planetary scale is confirmed. When the people of the world focus on something it changes the randomness of the local (Earth proximity extending out to we do not know how far) environment such that the entire system of nature itself, the physics of everything - becomes more ordered. It states that chaos, true randomness, decreases measurably, significantly, and reproducibly to a degree that is impossible to occur spontaneously. By having a large number of people focus on a thing, we can quantify an impossibly large change in the background randomness of nature itself, from a Quantum Scale all the way up to a planetary macroscopic scale. Furthermore, we can quantify the fact to an impossibly large degree that the focus of attention to a specific event precedes the actual event by a macroscopic scale of several days. The awareness of the general population of the planet is that the event will occur in the future, days before the events occur. Foreknowledge is for the first time measured and quantified, and affects all of nature from a Quantum Scale to a planetary macroscopic scale. Consciousness is measured and quantified to affect all of nature from a Quantum Scale to a planetary macroscopic scale. Consciousness is measured and quantified to affect both order and chaos in nature from a Quantum Scale to a planetary macroscopic scale.

If you have issues with this interpretation, keep in mind that this is explicitly stated by the authors who are from the Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering at Princeton University and published in a peer reviewed scientific journal. A counter argument requires more than an ideological disagreement. This particular case has been argued for many years with no solid refutable argument emerging from the scientific community. It remains unanswered but well characterized.

So I skimmed the paper.

I'm not qualified to analyze or dispute the methodology, so I didn't focus on it that much. What I was looking for would have been in the Discussion section, because it struck me as odd that they were concluding some sort of direct impact on RNGs by mass human consciousness. This did not seem to be a scientific conclusion based on the evidence described. At the very least, I wanted to see both (A) the authors' reasoning, and (B) what other explanations the authors addressed.

And there were plenty of other possible explanations. Just thinking through it for a few minutes, I came up with two alternative explanations:

* Significant distraction by the operators of these devices, which may have compromised the data. Did the authors go back and double-check to see that the devices were being logged and operated correctly in the hours after 9/11?

* Worldwide change in how, say, radio was being used. Photons interact with quantum effects, after all, and grounding all planes would have eliminated a lot of radio waves from the skies above the RNG devices. Similarly, worldwide media consumption and broadcasting changed in character. The same footage, be it video of the planes striking or various news conferences, was being broadcast on repeat on radio and television. The random noise of the airwaves was suddenly less random. Would this interfere with the quantum number generators? Could there be some other link, not based on media but based on more physical phenomena rather than a semi-mystical consciousness-influencing-the-quantum? How would the authors correct for this?

So I was looking for how, or whether, the authors would address these points.

The authors didn't, because they did not conclude some sort of quantum-influencing consciousness. In fact, the only thing they said on the subject was this:

"... extensive further replication is needed before proposals of a causal or otherwise direct link between human consciousness and the output of the network generators can be convincingly advanced."

In context, it is not clear whether they're referring to a more mystical sense of human-consciousness influencing things (like positive vibes or whatever), or a more conventional sense (like grounding planes and changing media usage). But looking at the sources they're citing, they seem to be pretty cognizant of the more woo-ish version. This raised a third possibility in my mind: Deliberate fraud by a proponent of this theory. It wouldn't be the first time this happened in science, and if this experiment was properly conducted then there would be controls in place to prevent such frauds from occurring. Were they in place here?

Well.... the paper doesn't say. But there is clearly a fraud at work here, because of this.

"... extensive further replication is needed before proposals of a causal or otherwise direct link between human consciousness and the output of the network generators can be convincingly advanced."

(05-07-2017 11:43 AM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  It means that there is quantifiable proof that is hard data, reproducible, peer reviewed, and mathematically evaluated to the following statement – e.g., the hypothesis that Consciousness on a global scale effects order on a Quantum to a planetary scale is confirmed.

.....

.... okay, let's see if I can make this fraud a bit clearer.


"... extensive further replication is needed before proposals of a causal or otherwise direct link between human consciousness and the output of the network generators can be convincingly advanced."

(05-07-2017 11:43 AM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  It means that there is quantifiable proof that is hard data, reproducible, peer reviewed, and mathematically evaluated to the following statement – e.g., the hypothesis that Consciousness on a global scale effects order on a Quantum to a planetary scale is confirmed.

....

.... maybe I can make the fraudulence even clearer than that.

"... extensive further replication is needed before proposals of a causal or otherwise direct link between human consciousness and the output of the network generators can be convincingly advanced."

(05-07-2017 11:43 AM)mmhm1234 Wrote:  It means that there is quantifiable proof that is hard data, reproducible, peer reviewed, and mathematically evaluated to the following statement – e.g., the hypothesis that Consciousness on a global scale effects order on a Quantum to a planetary scale is confirmed.

..... I have a particular loathing, sir-or-madam, for liars, con-artists, and frauds, and you have just shown this to be the nature of your character.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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