Ranting corner
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06-10-2017, 09:49 PM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2017 02:16 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Ranting corner
(06-10-2017 10:12 AM)adey67 Wrote:  I totally get where you are coming from, what you say makes a certain sense but isn't it possible that some people once exposed to cartoon kiddie sex might be triggered to "explore things further in the interest of creativity" and indulge in finding real child abuse images which are hugely damaging.
Surely we must do everything possible to thwart this nastiness in all its forms and anything that potentially creates a demand, if that means people don't get to explore certain areas of "creativity" is that really a bad thing, is it really censorious or just good practice to show zero tolerance? I should also point out I'm talking about out and out lolicon not henti per se.

Okay, now repeat everything you just said, but replace the depraved cartoons with depictions of violence and murder.

Does your argument still hold up? Would you hold depictions of violence and murder to the same standard?

I'm not saying you have to agree with me, or be comfortable with the outcomes when taken to the extreme; but I do at least use a consistent measuring stick. I'm treating sexually explicit material of fictitious characters identical to explicitly violent material of fictitious characters.

If you are truly concerned with the potential effect of just exposing people to an idea, as opposed to the actual harm of following through with an idea, then by all rights you should be for banning all explicitly violent material. If that's the position you want to hold, I'll disagree with you, but I'll at least respect the consistent logic. But I simply fail to see a meaningful distinction here. If it's okay for these cartoons to kill each other, for these cartoons murder each other, and for these cartoons to have sex with each other, it seems really silly to draw a line in the sand and say that now those cartoons over there might be affecting people negatively.

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07-10-2017, 03:40 AM
RE: Ranting corner
(06-10-2017 09:49 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(06-10-2017 10:12 AM)adey67 Wrote:  I totally get where you are coming from, what you say makes a certain sense but isn't it possible that some people once exposed to cartoon kiddie sex might be triggered to "explore things further in the interest of creativity" and indulge in finding real child abuse images which are hugely damaging.
Surely we must do everything possible to thwart this nastiness in all its forms and anything that potentially creates a demand, if that means people don't get to explore certain areas of "creativity" is that really a bad thing, is it really censorious or just good practice to show zero tolerance? I should also point out I'm talking about out and out lolicon not henti per se.

Okay, now repeat everything you just said, but replace the depraved cartoons with depictions of violence and murder.

Does your argument still hold up? Would you hold depictions of violence and murder to the same standard?

I'm not saying you have to agree with me, or be comfortable with the outcomes when taken to the extreme; but I do at least use a consistent measuring stick. I'm treating sexually explicit material of fictitious characters identical to explicitly violent material of fictitious characters.

If you are truly concerned with the potential effect of just exposing people to an idea, as opposed to the actual harm of following through with an idea, then by all rights you should be for banning all explicitly violent material. If that's the position you want to hold, I'll disagree with you, but I'll at least respect the consistent logic. But I simply fail to see a meaningful distinction here. If it's okay for these cartoons to kill each other, for these cartoons murder each other, and for these cartoons to have sex with each other, it seems really silly to draw a line in the sand and say that now those cartoons over there might be affecting people negatively.
You're probably right about there being a double standard at play in my argument I accept that and I'm happy to own it (no point in keeping on digging the hole) Honestly I can't fault your logic.
Personally I have no problem with henti porn as long as the characters are obviously sexually mature, as opposed to depictions of pubescent or pre pubescent kids, certainly the topic warrants some research on my part I feel, I need to understand why most European countries and other countries have implemented a ban and what's the rationale behind it.
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07-10-2017, 03:43 AM
RE: Ranting corner
WTF is "henti porn"????

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07-10-2017, 04:02 AM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2017 04:12 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Ranting corner
(07-10-2017 03:40 AM)adey67 Wrote:  You're probably right about there being a double standard at play in my argument I accept that and I'm happy to own it (no point in keeping on digging the hole) Honestly I can't fault your logic.
Personally I have no problem with henti porn as long as the characters are obviously sexually mature, as opposed to depictions of pubescent or pre pubescent kids, certainly the topic warrants some research on my part I feel, I need to understand why most European countries and other countries have implemented a ban and what's the rationale behind it.
EK 1 Adey 0 ....... for now Tongue Laugh out load

I imagine it has a lot to do with tradition, common law, and cultural norms. The enlightenment infused Constitution and the Bill of Rights were a (comparatively) radical departure in governance when they were written. Combine that with two centuries of Supreme Court precedent leaning very heavily on the side of freedom of speech and expression, and you have a much more liberal take on the subject here than overseas. This shows up in other avenues as well, such as the (until recently) longstanding practice of filling international defamation and libel cases in Great Briton, because of their laws being weighed heavily in the favor of those filing the claim.

Simply put, the bar to which you must reach before the government will interfere with someone's freedom of speech or expression is much higher in the United States than in most of Europe. However even I'm not sure of just how my reasoning would hold up according to law and precedent. I've seen some ecchi manga that had clearly changed the ages of characters, so that junior high students were all somehow 18; whether that was done because they had to, or more simply as a preventive measure to forestall any possible legal challenge, I honestly do not know. Video games created and adopted their own rating system (the ESRB, similar to the EU's PEGI) to allow for self regulation, before the government imposed it on them; perhaps this is just a similar tactic by translation teams and publishing houses?

So don't take any of this personally. I was a animation and game design major in college, and that really colors both my level of background knowledge and my perspective; I view these thing from and am biased towards the position of content creators. So combine that with my typical atheist pedantry, and that's how we get here. Tongue

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07-10-2017, 04:05 AM
RE: Ranting corner
(07-10-2017 03:43 AM)Banjo Wrote:  WTF is "henti porn"????

'Hentai' is Japanese for 'pervert', but it's actual meaning is quite a bit more nuanced; there is no perfect 1-to-1 translation in English. In the west, it typically refers to Japaneses styled works of animation, comics, and games that are sexually explicit in nature.

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07-10-2017, 04:05 AM
RE: Ranting corner
(07-10-2017 03:43 AM)Banjo Wrote:  WTF is "henti porn"????

Basically its a very distinctive type of cartoon originally developed by the Japanese, you've basically got you're regular henti which is like any old cartoon comic book then you have henti porn which is cartoon porn frequently involving octopus like tentacles for some bizarre reason. Then it starts to get dark and sinister, there's a sub section of henti porn known as lolicon in which the cartoon characters are apparently very obviously under aged. It is banned in Britain and other countries but not in all. It is still permitted in Japan and as I found out a couple of days ago also America.
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07-10-2017, 04:09 AM
RE: Ranting corner
(07-10-2017 04:05 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(07-10-2017 03:43 AM)Banjo Wrote:  WTF is "henti porn"????

Basically its a very distinctive type of cartoon originally developed by the Japanese, you've basically got you're regular henti which is like any old cartoon comic book then you have henti porn which is cartoon porn frequently involving octopus like tentacles for some bizarre reason. Then it starts to get dark and sinister, there's a sub section of henti porn known as lolicon in which the cartoon characters are apparently very obviously under aged. It is banned in Britain and other countries but not in all. It is still permitted in Japan and as I found out a couple of days ago also America.

Pedant objection!

'Hentai' ('pervert' in Japanese) is a genre of animated porn which belongs to the Japanese animation style of 'Anime'. As an anime watcher and pedant, I cannot let this miscommunication stand. Furthermore, the tentacles are because actual genitals are censored.

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07-10-2017, 04:11 AM
RE: Ranting corner
(07-10-2017 04:02 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(07-10-2017 03:40 AM)adey67 Wrote:  You're probably right about there being a double standard at play in my argument I accept that and I'm happy to own it (no point in keeping on digging the hole) Honestly I can't fault your logic.
Personally I have no problem with henti porn as long as the characters are obviously sexually mature, as opposed to depictions of pubescent or pre pubescent kids, certainly the topic warrants some research on my part I feel, I need to understand why most European countries and other countries have implemented a ban and what's the rationale behind it.
EK 1 Adey 0 ....... for now Tongue Laugh out load

I imagine it has a lot to do with tradition, common law, and cultural norms. The enlightenment infused Constitution and the Bill of Rights were a (comparatively) radical departure in governance when they were written. Combine that with two centuries of Supreme Court precedent leaning very heavily on the side of freedom of speech and expression, and you have a much more liberal take on the subject here than overseas. This shows up in other avenues as well, such as the (until recently) longstanding practice of filling international defamation and libel cases in Great Briton, because of their laws being weighed heavily in the favor of those filing the claim.

Simply put, the bar to which you must reach before the government will interfere with someone's freedom of speech or expression is much higher in the United States than in most of Europe. However even I'm not sure of just how my reasoning would hold up according to law and precedent. I've seen some ecchi manga that had clearly changed the ages of characters, so that junior high students were all somehow 18; whether that was done because they had to, or more simply as a preventive measure to forestall any possible legal challenge, I honestly do not know. Video games created and adopted their own rating system (the ESRB, similar to the EU's PEGI) to allow for self regulation, before the government imposed it on them; perhaps this is just a similar tactic by translation teams and publishing houses?

Thanks EK that was very informative and useful I appreciate you taking the time to post.
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07-10-2017, 04:16 AM
RE: Ranting corner
(07-10-2017 04:09 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(07-10-2017 04:05 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Basically its a very distinctive type of cartoon originally developed by the Japanese, you've basically got you're regular henti which is like any old cartoon comic book then you have henti porn which is cartoon porn frequently involving octopus like tentacles for some bizarre reason. Then it starts to get dark and sinister, there's a sub section of henti porn known as lolicon in which the cartoon characters are apparently very obviously under aged. It is banned in Britain and other countries but not in all. It is still permitted in Japan and as I found out a couple of days ago also America.

Pedant objection!

'Hentai' ('pervert' in Japanese) is a genre of animated porn which belongs to the Japanese animation style of 'Anime'. As an anime watcher and pedant, I cannot let this miscommunication stand. Furthermore, the tentacles are because actual genitals are censored.
I don't think you are being pedantic just accurate, I stand corrected.
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07-10-2017, 04:34 AM
RE: Ranting corner
(07-10-2017 04:09 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(07-10-2017 04:05 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Basically its a very distinctive type of cartoon originally developed by the Japanese, you've basically got you're regular henti which is like any old cartoon comic book then you have henti porn which is cartoon porn frequently involving octopus like tentacles for some bizarre reason. Then it starts to get dark and sinister, there's a sub section of henti porn known as lolicon in which the cartoon characters are apparently very obviously under aged. It is banned in Britain and other countries but not in all. It is still permitted in Japan and as I found out a couple of days ago also America.

Pedant objection!

'Hentai' ('pervert' in Japanese) is a genre of animated porn which belongs to the Japanese animation style of 'Anime'. As an anime watcher and pedant, I cannot let this miscommunication stand. Furthermore, the tentacles are because actual genitals are censored.

Except that the concept itself (tentacle erotica) dates back to at least 1814, easily predating Japan's Meiji/Victorian-era inspired censorship laws. Tongue

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