Rational Suicide - Constructive Discussion
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23-01-2017, 09:39 AM
RE: Rational Suicide - Constructive Discussion
(23-01-2017 09:28 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Well, here's my point. If you're talking about suicide very few people are going to say, "Good idea, go for it." Since everyone knows that, if you're asking about it you're obviously asking to get talked out of it. But if you want to die you're just going to go jump off a bridge. By extension the answer to should I kill myself is always no (unless you want to). That's my take.

That is not rational suicide, which we are talking about. You just had a number of people saying they will probably do it. Rational suicide is well thought out and planned, and yes, people do want to talk about it. It's the most consequential thing you will do in your life. It bears discussion. There are not a lot of places to do so. Because of the attitude you just explained.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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23-01-2017, 09:49 AM
RE: Rational Suicide - Constructive Discussion
(23-01-2017 09:10 AM)Dom Wrote:  Guys, this is the support section. Here, we do not attack people, we support them. If you want to argue, go to another section, practically the whole place is open for arguments.
Indeed!
It's right in the thread title, Constructive Discussion
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27-01-2017, 07:12 AM
RE: Rational Suicide - Constructive Discussion
I think the fact that we should have the ability to chose our own death is ultimately the greatest and most important liberty.
I hate to think that if you really want to end your life, there is some legal obligation for preventing you to do so.
Being trapped in a life you don't want to live is probably the worst prison you can find, when everyday is suffering and people prevent you from putting an end to it, based on morale and legal values, when you're the one suffering.
Who can decide how much pain someone is living to tell him "no, you don't suffer enough, I'll force you to stay alive".

There was a case in Belgium a year ago about a woman who didn't suffer physical disease, but who had been granted the right to euthanasia because she couldn't stand her life (found this article about it here : http://europe.newsweek.com/healthy-24-ye...ium-329504 ).
I thought that the way it was done was probably the best : the fact that she resorted to it after having been treated for years, I mean, I wouldn't find it a good issue if people could resort to it without trying first to treat their depression, but for someone who has tried for years and who still suffers, being granted the right to end your life and being assisted for it to happen in good condition is something positive to me.
If someone wants to end his/her life, they can do it anyway, I think it is better that they can be medically assisted for it instead of suffering a violent death (and traumatic for the person who will discover the body). Also if people who want to commit suicide knew there was an assisted way of doing it, more of them would see a doctor (who in the first place will try to treat them).
How many people who suffer deep depression kill themselves without having first tried to be treated for it ? if when they decide to commit suicide they finally enter a medical treatment for the first time, maybe some of them would finally be treated and get out of depression instead of committing suicide.

This topic is close to me, because I live with someone who has sever depression, and often suicidal thoughts : I know it's sometimes very hard to convince somebody who is depressed to get treated, it took me more than 10 years to have her see a doctor for the first time. I know she doesn't trust doctors, because for her, they are the people who can have her committed and prevent her from ending her life : if she had had a different opinion about them, seeing them as people who could assist her but who will first try to treat her, it probably wouldn't have taken me 10 years to have her see a doctor.
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27-01-2017, 08:21 AM
RE: Rational Suicide - Constructive Discussion
(27-01-2017 07:12 AM)Sturm Wrote:  I think the fact that we should have the ability to chose our own death is ultimately the greatest and most important liberty.
I hate to think that if you really want to end your life, there is some legal obligation for preventing you to do so.
Being trapped in a life you don't want to live is probably the worst prison you can find, when everyday is suffering and people prevent you from putting an end to it, based on morale and legal values, when you're the one suffering.
Who can decide how much pain someone is living to tell him "no, you don't suffer enough, I'll force you to stay alive".

There was a case in Belgium a year ago about a woman who didn't suffer physical disease, but who had been granted the right to euthanasia because she couldn't stand her life (found this article about it here : http://europe.newsweek.com/healthy-24-ye...ium-329504 ).
I thought that the way it was done was probably the best : the fact that she resorted to it after having been treated for years, I mean, I wouldn't find it a good issue if people could resort to it without trying first to treat their depression, but for someone who has tried for years and who still suffers, being granted the right to end your life and being assisted for it to happen in good condition is something positive to me.
If someone wants to end his/her life, they can do it anyway, I think it is better that they can be medically assisted for it instead of suffering a violent death (and traumatic for the person who will discover the body). Also if people who want to commit suicide knew there was an assisted way of doing it, more of them would see a doctor (who in the first place will try to treat them).
How many people who suffer deep depression kill themselves without having first tried to be treated for it ? if when they decide to commit suicide they finally enter a medical treatment for the first time, maybe some of them would finally be treated and get out of depression instead of committing suicide.

This topic is close to me, because I live with someone who has sever depression, and often suicidal thoughts : I know it's sometimes very hard to convince somebody who is depressed to get treated, it took me more than 10 years to have her see a doctor for the first time. I know she doesn't trust doctors, because for her, they are the people who can have her committed and prevent her from ending her life : if she had had a different opinion about them, seeing them as people who could assist her but who will first try to treat her, it probably wouldn't have taken me 10 years to have her see a doctor.

Very good points. I agree 100%.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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27-01-2017, 08:25 AM
RE: Rational Suicide - Constructive Discussion
(23-01-2017 09:28 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Well, here's my point. If you're talking about suicide very few people are going to say, "Good idea, go for it." Since everyone knows that, if you're asking about it you're obviously asking to get talked out of it. But if you want to die you're just going to go jump off a bridge. By extension the answer to should I kill myself is always no (unless you want to). That's my take.

I see what you are saying, but if it is *rational suicide,* I don't think people would necessarily be trying to talk you out of it. My dad was diagnosed with a terminal illness and I watched him suffer every day. If he had said, "Jenny, I am in so much pain, my quality of life is no longer good and want to opt for assisted suicide" I would have supported him in his decision. And I would have been there, holding his hand as he passed away. Instead, I watched him get sicker and sicker until he finally passed away naturally when his frail body could no longer take it anymore.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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27-01-2017, 08:33 AM
RE: Rational Suicide - Constructive Discussion
(27-01-2017 08:25 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(23-01-2017 09:28 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Well, here's my point. If you're talking about suicide very few people are going to say, "Good idea, go for it." Since everyone knows that, if you're asking about it you're obviously asking to get talked out of it. But if you want to die you're just going to go jump off a bridge. By extension the answer to should I kill myself is always no (unless you want to). That's my take.

I see what you are saying, but if it is *rational suicide,* I don't think people would necessarily be trying to talk you out of it. My dad was diagnosed with a terminal illness and I watched him suffer every day. If he had said, "Jenny, I am in so much pain, my quality of life is no longer good and want to opt for assisted suicide" I would have supported him in his decision. And I would have been there, holding his hand as he passed away. Instead, I watched him get sicker and sicker until he finally passed away naturally when his frail body could no longer take it anymore.

From what I see often one's tolerance increases as one goes through the process of a terminal disease. That is why often people will get the prescription but never take the pill.

The important part here though is the freedom to make one's own decisions regarding this. Like mentioned above, there is nothing more horrifying than to be forced to go through torture (suffering IS torture). But it is also important to let people live every moment they feel they want to live.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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27-01-2017, 08:58 AM
RE: Rational Suicide - Constructive Discussion
I've had a nitrogen go bag ready for decades. I find it soothing like a warm blankie. There's actually something called the "Exit Bag Paradox" (or something like that) where they found that giving terminal patients the means to end their own lives resulted in them living longer. I can see that. It's kept me alive for a long time now.

#sigh
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27-01-2017, 09:33 AM
RE: Rational Suicide - Constructive Discussion
(27-01-2017 08:58 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I've had a nitrogen go bag ready for decades.

What's a nitrogen go bag? (I know I could google it but I'm too lazy to look it up.)
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27-01-2017, 09:59 AM
RE: Rational Suicide - Constructive Discussion
(27-01-2017 09:33 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  
(27-01-2017 08:58 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I've had a nitrogen go bag ready for decades.

What's a nitrogen go bag? (I know I could google it but I'm too lazy to look it up.)

you have to google nitrogen exit

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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27-01-2017, 10:21 AM
RE: Rational Suicide - Constructive Discussion
Nitrogen is fast and painless. I used to work sometimes in what is called an "enclosed space", which is a volume that has few openings (like a tank) that must be supplied with fresh air to keep you alive. If that space was flooded with nitrogen (as happened to three NASA techs working on a space shuttle), you are unconscious within three breaths and will be dead within minutes without medical intervention.
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