Rationalism is a religion?
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06-06-2017, 03:42 AM
RE: Rationalism is a religion?
(06-06-2017 02:42 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  No, much bolder than that. I said I believe that there is intelligent life in the universe outside of planet earth, and that the nature of the universe may very well make that belief impossible to test. I also claim that it is not an irrational belief. Do not misunderstand, I don't make Gnostic claims.

I agree but I don't know what to build upon it.
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06-06-2017, 04:55 AM
RE: Rationalism is a religion?
(06-06-2017 02:42 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(06-06-2017 01:58 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Bolded mine
Did you just say you hold a belief based on a claim that is (very well) impossible to test? Did you just ask if that is irrational? Consider

No, much bolder than that. I said I believe that there is intelligent life in the universe outside of planet earth, and that the nature of the universe may very well make that belief impossible to test. I also claim that it is not an irrational belief. Do not misunderstand, I don't make Gnostic claims.

I didnt misunderstand you. I never claimed that you claimed to know. You are talking about belief, i understand that.
I am however missing an answer to my questions, since you just restated what you said earlier.

So let me restate please:
You do hold a belief that is based on an untestable claim? yes/no
You asked rhetorically if that is irrational. So you think that is, in fact, rational? yes/no

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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06-06-2017, 05:01 AM
RE: Rationalism is a religion?
(05-06-2017 06:10 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  God is claimed to be any different things by many different people. A sufficiently advanced other worldly intelligent life could easily be the basis of a persons religion, for example. Another example are those that claim that nature is god and worship the universe without the need for a guiding intelligence at all.

I'm not interested in semantic games that simply paste a "god" label on something else. If somebody says that they get comfort from believing in a god that loves them and they mean an alien civilization or the non-sentient universe then they are being deliberately misleading.

(06-06-2017 02:42 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  No, much bolder than that. I said I believe that there is intelligent life in the universe outside of planet earth, and that the nature of the universe may very well make that belief impossible to test. I also claim that it is not an irrational belief. Do not misunderstand, I don't make Gnostic claims.

Which is why I made a distinction between believing that alien life exists and believing that it is likely that it does. The latter is based on extrapolation from the evidence we have and is not an irrational belief.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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06-06-2017, 07:12 AM
RE: Rationalism is a religion?
(06-06-2017 05:01 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Which is why I made a distinction between believing that alien life exists and believing that it is likely that it does. The latter is based on extrapolation from the evidence we have and is not an irrational belief.

Thats where i was headed too.

I hoped he would figure that belief in someting that cant be tested is irrational, and if he wants to be rational he needs to change his position from "i believe aliens exist" to something else....like you suggested.

His argument about aliens and the size of the universe was ok, his conclusion was irrational, because he went one step too far.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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06-06-2017, 10:17 AM
RE: Rationalism is a religion?
(06-06-2017 07:12 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(06-06-2017 05:01 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Which is why I made a distinction between believing that alien life exists and believing that it is likely that it does. The latter is based on extrapolation from the evidence we have and is not an irrational belief.

Thats where i was headed too.

I hoped he would figure that belief in someting that cant be tested is irrational, and if he wants to be rational he needs to change his position from "i believe aliens exist" to something else....like you suggested.

His argument about aliens and the size of the universe was ok, his conclusion was irrational, because he went one step too far.

DL definitely isn't irrational and I think we're just arguing semantics here... "belief" is a tricky word because it covers a wide range of confidence levels and "I believe X" is often shorthand for "I believe that X is possible/likely/probable" but can be easily misunderstood.

There's a world of difference between "I believe there's alien life" and "I believe there IS alien life".

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06-06-2017, 10:39 AM
RE: Rationalism is a religion?
Googling the defintion of "rationalism," I get this:

"rationalism: a belief or theory that opinions and actions should be based on reason and knowledge rather than on religious belief or emotional response.
Philosophy: the theory that reason rather than experience is the foundation of certainty in knowledge.
Theology: the practice of treating reason as the ultimate authority in religion."
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06-06-2017, 10:48 AM
RE: Rationalism is a religion?
(06-06-2017 10:17 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(06-06-2017 07:12 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Thats where i was headed too.

I hoped he would figure that belief in someting that cant be tested is irrational, and if he wants to be rational he needs to change his position from "i believe aliens exist" to something else....like you suggested.

His argument about aliens and the size of the universe was ok, his conclusion was irrational, because he went one step too far.

DL definitely isn't irrational and I think we're just arguing semantics here... "belief" is a tricky word because it covers a wide range of confidence levels and "I believe X" is often shorthand for "I believe that X is possible/likely/probable" but can be easily misunderstood.

There's a world of difference between "I believe there's alien life" and "I believe there IS alien life".

Certainly he isnt, but he gave a textbook example of irrationality, and doubled down on it, after i gave him the chance to correct himslef / be more precise and making him aware (he must have noticed) that he was about to make an error, a partially formal one, but nevertheless.
If we bash christians and other lunatics for being irrational by dissecting their statements, we also have to point out when we are making irrational statements ouselves.

After all he could have corrected himself and say "i think its probable that there is alien life". Instead he doubled down on believing in a claim he himself stated is possibly unfalsifiable.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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06-06-2017, 10:59 AM
RE: Rationalism is a religion?
(06-06-2017 10:39 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  Googling the defintion of "rationalism," I get this:

"rationalism: a belief or theory that opinions and actions should be based on reason and knowledge rather than on religious belief or emotional response.
Philosophy: the theory that reason rather than experience is the foundation of certainty in knowledge.
Theology: the practice of treating reason as the ultimate authority in religion."
I would have to object to that last one. Theology is a non-science and a faux discipline that consists of trying to bring consistency to the random unsubstantiated assertions of a particular religious school of thought. At the comparative level, it can be more "scientific" in that it would ideally be a dispassionate and fairly unbiased comparison of two or more theologies, point by point and assumption by assumption -- or a comparison of a current theology with its historical forebears. But comparing one roiling stew of bullshit to another roiling stew of bullshit is of highly questionable value. It is rather like a comparative review of two or more similar works of fiction, like comparing Tolkien to Lewis ... interesting but ultimately not enlightening for the most part.

Theology, mostly, is weighing various speculative ideas about god and his claims on his adherents and threats to his non-adherents, about afterlives and future events, and picking the best speculations to produce the least troublesome or hard-to-dismiss logical inconsistencies within a particular system of belief you're trying to shore up.
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06-06-2017, 11:00 AM
RE: Rationalism is a religion?
(05-06-2017 04:21 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(05-06-2017 09:58 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  This is why I'm not sure I have a problem with taxpayer-funded school vouchers for parochial schools.
Well the problem of course is that all religiously-sponsored schools are not created equal, ..

Good point. The Lutherans are a special lot seeing as they were founded by a rebellious vandal. Rebellion's kind of doctrinal.

#sigh
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06-06-2017, 11:08 AM
RE: Rationalism is a religion?
(06-06-2017 10:59 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(06-06-2017 10:39 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  Googling the defintion of "rationalism," I get this:

"rationalism: a belief or theory that opinions and actions should be based on reason and knowledge rather than on religious belief or emotional response.
Philosophy: the theory that reason rather than experience is the foundation of certainty in knowledge.
Theology: the practice of treating reason as the ultimate authority in religion."
I would have to object to that last one. Theology is a non-science and a faux discipline that consists of trying to bring consistency to the random unsubstantiated assertions of a particular religious school of thought.

Yes, religions could not get by without rationalizations, but that's not the same thing as rationalism.
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