Rationality in framework of ideology.
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21-08-2017, 02:36 PM
Rationality in framework of ideology.
Recently I thought about totalitarian regimes and classyfying them as rational or not. Reich killing of Jews hardly could be called rational as it took time and resources better spent elsewhere while financial gains weren't great*, and many potential workers were killed, but from Nazi perspective it could looked differently - whatever was to be gained from Jews was of less worth than damage they can do. So could we call Nazi regime irrational and ideologically driven or can we say that it was rational within it's ideological framework?

There is similar though I think less pronounced issue with Soviets - Great Terror as simple criminal madness (Baberowski, "Verbrannte Erde"), rational, total anti spy action (Snyder, "Stalin and Europe") or action that was irrational to observer but made sense within stalinist ideological framework.

So what are your thoughts? Were above mentioned regimes rational or irrational? Or more likely beyond such simple descriptionsjus as they both weren't pure examples of right (Nazi KDF and welfare state in statu nascendi) or left (Soviet nationalism infecting revolution from beggining, Stalin years social conservativism [divorces, etc.] as opposed to greater freedoms during Lenin times)

I also ask for opinion about validity of phrase "rational within ideological framework". Isn't it more complicated means of calling something irrational or it has some merit?


*Hilberg ("Destruction of European Jews) if I recall correctly deny rationality to Nazi killings; Aly ("Hitler's Beneficiaries") admits that financial gains from arianisation weren't great but came at the right time to make differsnce.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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21-08-2017, 03:53 PM
RE: Rationality in framework of ideology.
(21-08-2017 02:36 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I also ask for opinion about validity of phrase "rational within ideological framework". Isn't it more complicated means of calling something irrational or it has some merit?

All actions can be justified as rational within their ideological framework. That's how large numbers of people get convinced to *do* them. The Inquisition made sense within the context of the beliefs of the time. The Iraq war. Nazism. The killings in Cambodia. The reason that anyone carried out these actions which today we condemn as totally evil and *how could they*, is because the people in charge managed to convince other people that these actions were *required*, that they made sense. The line of thought would have been that maybe they were repugnant on some level, but that they *had* to be done. So I think maybe it's just a more roundabout way of saying that it's irrational.

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21-08-2017, 06:29 PM
RE: Rationality in framework of ideology.
(21-08-2017 03:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  All actions can be justified as rational within their ideological framework. That's how large numbers of people get convinced to *do* them. The Inquisition made sense within the context of the beliefs of the time. The Iraq war. Nazism. The killings in Cambodia. The reason that anyone carried out these actions which today we condemn as totally evil and *how could they*, is because the people in charge managed to convince other people that these actions were *required*, that they made sense. The line of thought would have been that maybe they were repugnant on some level, but that they *had* to be done. So I think maybe it's just a more roundabout way of saying that it's irrational.

Consistency is not rationality. Consistency produces rationalizations but not rationality per se.

I don't think rationality can be achieved within any dogmatic framework. To be rational you must be open-ended, self-correcting, and observant -- like scientists ideally are. How many politicians of any variety are like that?
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21-08-2017, 07:22 PM
RE: Rationality in framework of ideology.
(21-08-2017 02:36 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  ...
as they both weren't pure examples of right (Nazi KDF and welfare state in statu nascendi) or left (Soviet nationalism infecting revolution from beginning, Stalin years social conservatism [divorces, etc.] as opposed to greater freedoms during Lenin times)

I also ask for opinion about validity of phrase "rational within ideological framework". Isn't it more complicated means of calling something irrational or it has some merit?
...

Do you mean rational or systematic?

I teach Governance. An element of Governance is a framework. A framework enables governance by creating a structure for consistency (as Thoreauvian has noted) but is itself politically/ethically neutral, amoral and ideology-free.

The policies within that are a natural follow-on from 'principles' which may be ideological.

In nature, children are born into that consistency and mothers teach them to survive in that consistency. That's a rationale. The framework becomes the rules and norms.

So I echo the dog's comments and add ... the purges that history has seen ... Pol Pot and Stalin purging the intellectuals (for different reasons) or the purging of heretics or the ethnic purges of the Jews or more recently in Bosnia or Rwanda are only different in terms of scale, scope and level of violence to the purging of an organisation of non-compliant elements i.e. people who do not follow the processes.

Businesses are also dictatorial and make no left vs. right distinction.

It is therefore rational to follow process to achieve a desired outcome. Whether that desired outcome is emotionally driven or based on logic and reason is another matter.

I guess I'm saying that you need to define your terms...
Rational or rationale?
Ideology or Ethical?
Framework or system?
etc.

Smile

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21-08-2017, 07:56 PM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2017 09:47 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Rationality in framework of ideology.
(21-08-2017 02:36 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I also ask for opinion about validity of phrase "rational within ideological framework". Isn't it more complicated means of calling something irrational or it has some merit?

Are you confounding it with the "ideological" qualifier? Rationality requires a framework. No ideology required.

Rationality is, as its fundamental raisin de deux, a technique for manipulating reality to favor particular manifestations using a systematic application of an axiomatic framework onto the events we observe. Done properly, using sound self-evident and stipulated incontrovertible premises, it forces reality to conform to fantastic shapes and structures which can make men fly. (Bernoulli, in a very real sense I think, imposed "lift" on reality to further facilitate the flight of man to God. Yeah, the birds could fly, but only God can tell you why.) Done improperly, when the "axiomatic" premises are neither self-evident nor incontrovertible, and worse than unsound are abhorrent, you get what we can do to each other on some lizard-brain level unimpressed with reason.

There was nothing irrational about the Final Solution. It was just another abhorrent example of reason gone mad.

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21-08-2017, 09:20 PM
RE: Rationality in framework of ideology.
@DLJ

Rational, ideology and framework though last one may be replaced with words "within bounds".

Nazi actions in regard to Jews and Russians were consistent with their worldview even if situation sometimes made them take more pragmatic steps. Ideology never was entirely overriden though as we can see in example of "destruction through labor" which allowed for using Jews to work in a way that that satisfied tennets of Nazi ideology. So there was consistency. What about rationality of Nazis actions? It seems to me that they were lacking it but looking through Reich tinted worldview destruction of Jews whose were word level threat was sensible.

I may have used wrong words but I meant to ask if Reich could be seen as rational (in everyday usage of the word meaning) or not.

@Girly Man


I meant it more about rationality in everyday sense.


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The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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21-08-2017, 09:27 PM
RE: Rationality in framework of ideology.
Szuchow.
You may find this interesting. Smile




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21-08-2017, 09:30 PM
RE: Rationality in framework of ideology.
(21-08-2017 09:27 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Szuchow.
You may find this interesting. Smile



Thanks. When I return from work I gonna check it - phone isn't best for such things.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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21-08-2017, 09:49 PM
RE: Rationality in framework of ideology.
(21-08-2017 09:20 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  @Girly Man
I meant it more about rationality in everyday sense.

I was using it in the everyday sense. Smile

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22-08-2017, 03:48 AM
RE: Rationality in framework of ideology.
(21-08-2017 09:30 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(21-08-2017 09:27 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Szuchow.
You may find this interesting. Smile



Thanks. When I return from work I gonna check it - phone isn't best for such things.

Narrated by Kenneth Branagh. Smile

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
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