Reading the Bible
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13-03-2012, 08:01 AM
RE: Reading the Bible
(13-03-2012 07:57 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  They know the text better than you and have already suspended rational thought in their understanding of it so it isn't an even debate since one side is not playing with a full deck.

That's where you're wrong. My deck is full. I even have the two jokers and the instruction card.

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13-03-2012, 08:45 AM
RE: Reading the Bible
(13-03-2012 07:57 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  Personally I feel no need dive into the details of the Koran or the Bible. there is enough bs stuff there on the surface to discredit the whole thing without going into details. I am not a biblical scholar and do not aspire to be one. Besides spending that much time with it only gives it credence. I don't need to read Mein Kampf in detail to know that many of the basic messages there are wrong. Arguing scripture with a devoted theist is silly. They know the text better than you and have already suspended rational thought in their understanding of it so it isn't an even debate since one side is not playing with a full deck.

If you are going to debate any Muslims, it is best to read the Koran. They cite that thing like we cite reality. Constantly.

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13-03-2012, 06:12 PM
RE: Reading the Bible
Oh guys, I didn't mean I was going to argue with kingchosen or anyone like him. I don't have the time to read all of that, and I'd have no chance in an argument with him. I'm talking people who haven't really read the Bible yet claim to support it 100% -- if you're going to believe, I'd rather have you know your stuff than say you believe it because (they won't admit it, but it's true) their parents and family told them. If you can sustain my attacks when I'm armed with a little bit of Biblical knowledge, then you are too firm in your beliefs for me to do much.

I couldn't argue with kingchosen if I tried, I'd get torn to pieces lol. I mean, I wouldn't be able to keep up with him and refute him very well, as I wouldn't know what he was talking about in such and such verse of such and such chapter. He's just so much more experienced than I am.

"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned" - Anonymous
I am glad to live where there is no God, for I am moral, and mortal; I do not wish to worship He who crafts an immoral immortality.
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14-03-2012, 08:19 AM
RE: Reading the Bible
(13-03-2012 06:12 PM)nsguy1350 Wrote:  Oh guys, I didn't mean I was going to argue with kingchosen or anyone like him. I don't have the time to read all of that, and I'd have no chance in an argument with him. I'm talking people who haven't really read the Bible yet claim to support it 100% -- if you're going to believe, I'd rather have you know your stuff than say you believe it because (they won't admit it, but it's true) their parents and family told them. If you can sustain my attacks when I'm armed with a little bit of Biblical knowledge, then you are too firm in your beliefs for me to do much.

I couldn't argue with kingchosen if I tried, I'd get torn to pieces lol. I mean, I wouldn't be able to keep up with him and refute him very well, as I wouldn't know what he was talking about in such and such verse of such and such chapter. He's just so much more experienced than I am.

I appreciate the compliment. I am in no way a scholar or a theologian, but I have studied to make myself well-learned.

I do, however, believe it is important to learn your theology before getting into these types of conversations. I will help you where I can.

What exactly are you wanting to learn more about? Which part are you looking to debate with another Christian?

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14-03-2012, 03:03 PM
RE: Reading the Bible
My main problem is people saying they believe something without conducting proper research. Most of the people I know are basically indoctrinated into the religion and aren't attempting to see for themselves; I have come to my conclusions (although I'm always up for new knowledge), and if they come to contrasting ones through legitimate research, then I'm fine with that. I just don't want people to believe because that's how they were raised (one of my friends even said "because that's what I was born into" when I asked why he believed, and I can't believe he walked into that kind of trap.)

If I can point out things in the Bible that they don't support, and can't explain that it wasn't meant to be literal or something, but they still claim "I support the Bible 100%", then I have an issue. I want to have a general understanding, so I can counter what they say to me. If they can ward me off, then I'm fine with leaving them alone. It's not so much religion that bothers me (although it does, but I'll let people believe what you wish, as long as it's not harming anyone), it's the claiming of belief when you don't know anything about what you've been claiming to believe.

"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned" - Anonymous
I am glad to live where there is no God, for I am moral, and mortal; I do not wish to worship He who crafts an immoral immortality.
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14-03-2012, 03:16 PM
RE: Reading the Bible
If you clip out all the supernatural nonsense as you go through it, rearrange it so it flows a little better, you will end up with something like The Jefferson Bible. Smile

It's all in your head, because there is no other place it could be.
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14-03-2012, 03:32 PM
RE: Reading the Bible
(14-03-2012 03:03 PM)nsguy1350 Wrote:  My main problem is people saying they believe something without conducting proper research. Most of the people I know are basically indoctrinated into the religion and aren't attempting to see for themselves; I have come to my conclusions (although I'm always up for new knowledge), and if they come to contrasting ones through legitimate research, then I'm fine with that. I just don't want people to believe because that's how they were raised (one of my friends even said "because that's what I was born into" when I asked why he believed, and I can't believe he walked into that kind of trap.)

If I can point out things in the Bible that they don't support, and can't explain that it wasn't meant to be literal or something, but they still claim "I support the Bible 100%", then I have an issue. I want to have a general understanding, so I can counter what they say to me. If they can ward me off, then I'm fine with leaving them alone. It's not so much religion that bothers me (although it does, but I'll let people believe what you wish, as long as it's not harming anyone), it's the claiming of belief when you don't know anything about what you've been claiming to believe.

For people who support a 100% literally inerrant Bible, some go-to places are Genesis 1 and 2.

Quote:Genesis 1

11 Then God said, “Let the earth sprout [j]vegetation, [k]plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after [l]their kind [m]with seed in them”; and it was so. 12 The earth brought forth [n]vegetation, [o]plants yielding seed after [p]their kind, and trees bearing fruit [q]with seed in them, after [r]their kind; and God saw that it was good.
20 Then God said, “Let the waters [ad]teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth [ae]in the open [af]expanse of the heavens.” 21 God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after [ag]their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after [ah]their kind”; and it was so. 25 God made the beasts of the earth after [ai]their kind, and the cattle after [aj]their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the [ak]sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the [al]sky and over every living thing that [am]moves on the earth.” 29 Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the [an]surface of all the earth, and every tree [ao]which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the [ap]sky and to every thing that [aq]moves on the earth [ar]which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.

So, in short, in Genesis 1 it says God created and sprouted plants, and then created animals, and then created man and woman.

Take a look at Genesis 2:

Quote: 4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven. 5 Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to [c]cultivate the ground. 6 But a [d]mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole [e]surface of the ground. 7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living [f]being

18 Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper [o]suitable for him.” 19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the [p]sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the [q]sky, and to every beast of the field, but for [r]Adam there was not found a helper [s]suitable for him. 21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22 The LORD God [t]fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.

In Genesis 2 it states that nothing has sprouted yet, that man was created before animals, and that woman was created last.

A common argument is that Genesis 2 is an account within an account and that it was written in pluperfect tense (which it was); however, that doesn't explain the chronology of the creations; likewise, if any argument like this arises from a Bible literalist, you can always counter with, "So, you think the Bible isn't 100% literal?"

Truthfully, there isn't a literalist that can defend this position as you have to bend "literal" in order to make it fit.

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14-03-2012, 07:34 PM
RE: Reading the Bible
I would say you should read the whole thing, but, as a Catholic, I'm not gonna lie to you.........there are some parts that are boring as hell. so you should go into it knowing that a thorough and complete reading of the book will take dedication on your part. Good luck.

(12-03-2012 05:49 PM)nsguy1350 Wrote:  Hey guys. I'm considering reading the Bible, because I need all that extra ammo Wink
I want a "Skeptic's Annotated Bible", but I'm not out of my parent's house yet, and that'd start a bit of controversy, not that my dad is going to hate me or anything, but I don't want to get too involved with my family in religion.

So, when I finally get the time to read the Bible, should I go front to back, or should I focus on specific ammo-chapters, such as Leviticus? I feel I have some strong arguments, although I am not anywhere near the level of many of you, but I know that the Bible can give me a weapon of unbelievable power.

I have been able to coax my fellow Christian classmates into explicitly saying "The Bible is 100% true", which is murder. If they deny this, then the Bible is not a credible source at all, correct? Then, there are those who say that "it is not literal", but I don't think many I know are on this level, with enough knowledge to be able to claim this. I know that I can easily show them the silliness in their argument, and once they say that the Bible is "100% correct", they cannot deny anything that the Bible says. Welcome slavery, ridiculous creation accounts, etc.

My go-to-argument as of now is still my original, the argument that states that Christianity is no different from any other religion (first, getting them to say that Christianity implies all other religions who differ in ANY minute aspect are false), then showing them the similarities, and asking if they have any evidence of uniqueness among Christianity (claims of Jesus did such and such are easily linked to Muhammed, Hindu gods, etc.). However, the Bible would take me to a whole new level.

And lastly, I'd like to thank you all, atheist or theist, agnostic or gnostic! You've all given me excellent viewpoints and arguments to consider, and I hope to become as well-versed as you all. Arguments with some of my classmates have led them to tough spots. One guy, a Christian, and one who I cannot hit with the concept of sin too well, because of his "piousness", gave me an argument against evolution that I was able to refute (if evolution was true, then we should see the complete array of evolution, including examples of the first land animals, to which I replied that natural selection favored those with stronger legs or whatever, eliminating those "in-between" species of animals), and I also got him stuck into "a few corners". He said he congratulates me on the toughness of my arguments, and I'd like to hear that more often! He's a smart guy as well, so it was nice knowing I could stump someone with the intelligence of more than my right shoe.

I still technically consider myself an agnostic atheist, because I believe you cannot disprove the existence of a deity, but I assume that there is none, unless I am given adequate evidence of one.

Thanks!
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14-03-2012, 10:43 PM
RE: Reading the Bible
Everyone should know Genesis, just because there are so many references in it that are common knowledge. It's like reading a book of Brothers Grimm stories.

If you want to understand why the bible doesn't make a lot of sense, read the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) but don't just read one and then another... try to follow along with all 4 of them bookmarked, making a narrative out of the life of Jesus. It'll be easy to see a lot of inconsistencies there... the stories only loosely match up. I've tried it before and it's extremely difficult, and that was back when I was a Christian and doing bible studies for serious reasons. It was one of the red flags that made me see Christianity for what I now believe it really is --- a silly myth.

And like Genesis, knowing about the life and events of Jesus is just something you should have already learned. Most of these stories are common knowledge in our culture. It's good for trivia if nothing else.

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15-03-2012, 08:38 AM
 
RE: Reading the Bible
Easy Breasy!

2 ways to approach this....

1. Get the standard translation thats been used for ever. Dont let some of the newer Christians sway you into the "New Improved, Less Offensive to women, slaves and homos" version. Nope, go with the good old KJ version or the NKJ. Its the one that all the Palin's and Bachmann's use to try and pass legislation. Its the ONE that is word for word on the monuments they want to put in the state buildings. So thats the one. Start at the first word and go straight thru....

2. To HELP you thru it in a lighter way but VERY informative...go to iTunes and download FOR FREE a podcast called "Thomas and the Bible".
Trust me on this one...you'll thank me later.

I have been rereading the Bible from start to finish and supplement it with listening to Thomas and the bible podcast on my drive to work. Its like a double dose. The podcast is VERY VERY enjoyable.

D
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