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Real debate with fundies
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17-10-2013, 11:07 PM
Real debate with fundies
(17-10-2013 11:06 PM)LouisIX Wrote:  
(17-10-2013 11:02 PM)Crimson Flyboy Wrote:  Murder takes away from the rights of another, ingesting drugs does not. I am an adult and have every right to do with my body as I please, the government has no right to tell me what substances I can and cannot ingest.

What if taking a drug affects how you treat others? Should we be allowed to take bath salts if it makes us violent?

The violence is wrong, not the drug. A man commits crimes, not the drug.

"Laissez nous faire!"

"I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor will I ever ask another man to live for mine."
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17-10-2013, 11:08 PM
RE: Real debate with fundies
(17-10-2013 11:07 PM)Crimson Flyboy Wrote:  
(17-10-2013 11:06 PM)LouisIX Wrote:  What if taking a drug affects how you treat others? Should we be allowed to take bath salts if it makes us violent?

The violence is wrong, not the drug. A man commits crimes, not the drug.

A drug can't provoke a man to violence?
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17-10-2013, 11:10 PM
Real debate with fundies
(17-10-2013 11:08 PM)LouisIX Wrote:  
(17-10-2013 11:07 PM)Crimson Flyboy Wrote:  The violence is wrong, not the drug. A man commits crimes, not the drug.

A drug can't provoke a man to violence?

Of course it can, but that is no excuse. A man must own his actions and not make excuses. No substance should be made illegal.

"Laissez nous faire!"

"I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor will I ever ask another man to live for mine."
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17-10-2013, 11:11 PM
RE: Real debate with fundies
(17-10-2013 11:10 PM)Crimson Flyboy Wrote:  
(17-10-2013 11:08 PM)LouisIX Wrote:  A drug can't provoke a man to violence?

Of course it can, but that is no excuse. A man must own his actions and not make excuses. No substance should be made illegal.

But what if it is known to lower man's inhibitions or consciousness enough that it often leads to irrational or violent behavior?

Bath salts are known to cause violent or erratic outbursts in people.
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17-10-2013, 11:13 PM
Real debate with fundies
(17-10-2013 11:11 PM)LouisIX Wrote:  
(17-10-2013 11:10 PM)Crimson Flyboy Wrote:  Of course it can, but that is no excuse. A man must own his actions and not make excuses. No substance should be made illegal.

But what if it is known to lower man's inhibitions or consciousness enough that it often leads to irrational or violent behavior?

Bath salts are known to cause violent or erratic outbursts in people.

A man owns his body and is the only arbiter as to what goes in. If he makes poor decisions while on drugs he shouldn't take drugs, but that doesn't mean that the government should make drugs illegal and ruin it for every one.

"Laissez nous faire!"

"I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor will I ever ask another man to live for mine."
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17-10-2013, 11:16 PM
RE: Real debate with fundies
(17-10-2013 11:13 PM)Crimson Flyboy Wrote:  
(17-10-2013 11:11 PM)LouisIX Wrote:  But what if it is known to lower man's inhibitions or consciousness enough that it often leads to irrational or violent behavior?

Bath salts are known to cause violent or erratic outbursts in people.

A man owns his body and is the only arbiter as to what goes in. If he makes poor decisions while on drugs he shouldn't take drugs, but that doesn't mean that the government should make drugs illegal and ruin it for every one.

Do you feel the same about weapons?
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17-10-2013, 11:17 PM
Real debate with fundies
(17-10-2013 11:16 PM)LouisIX Wrote:  
(17-10-2013 11:13 PM)Crimson Flyboy Wrote:  A man owns his body and is the only arbiter as to what goes in. If he makes poor decisions while on drugs he shouldn't take drugs, but that doesn't mean that the government should make drugs illegal and ruin it for every one.

Do you feel the same about weapons?

People have the right to own weapons. They may only use them against others in self defense.

"Laissez nous faire!"

"I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor will I ever ask another man to live for mine."
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17-10-2013, 11:17 PM
RE: Real debate with fundies
(17-10-2013 11:03 PM)LouisIX Wrote:  No, I pointed out that the lack of consent makes it a different sort of act, one which is inherently more violent.

But just because two adults consent to something does not make it moral or amoral.

One of the fundamental differences with how we view ethics is that I do not believe adults can morally do whatever they please so long as they are not hurting anyone else. I understand that this is an alien idea. It's quite the opposite of what the Enlightenment thinkers have instilled in modern western law and government.

But if one believes that there is an objective nature of man which reflects God one can see that a man's life is not entirely his own to do with whatever he pleases. If the sexual organs are ordered to procreation and pleasure within marriage then masturbation is a disordered use of the sexual organs.

Again, I'm not trying to prove my belief right now, but merely to explain why consent is not the only moral criterion in my view.

The only thing you're saying here is that your objection is entirely predicated on scripture, not facts, nor logic. Your ideas are not your own.

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17-10-2013, 11:19 PM (This post was last modified: 17-10-2013 11:22 PM by evenheathen.)
RE: Real debate with fundies
(17-10-2013 11:11 PM)LouisIX Wrote:  
(17-10-2013 11:10 PM)Crimson Flyboy Wrote:  Of course it can, but that is no excuse. A man must own his actions and not make excuses. No substance should be made illegal.

But what if it is known to lower man's inhibitions or consciousness enough that it often leads to irrational or violent behavior?

Bath salts are known to cause violent or erratic outbursts in people.

Erratic people, known for their outbursts, are more likely to take bath salts. I'm not sure what that proves.....

I'm sure the same argument can be made over and over for whiskey.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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17-10-2013, 11:22 PM
RE: Real debate with fundies
(17-10-2013 11:17 PM)Anudist Wrote:  
(17-10-2013 11:03 PM)LouisIX Wrote:  No, I pointed out that the lack of consent makes it a different sort of act, one which is inherently more violent.

But just because two adults consent to something does not make it moral or amoral.

One of the fundamental differences with how we view ethics is that I do not believe adults can morally do whatever they please so long as they are not hurting anyone else. I understand that this is an alien idea. It's quite the opposite of what the Enlightenment thinkers have instilled in modern western law and government.

But if one believes that there is an objective nature of man which reflects God one can see that a man's life is not entirely his own to do with whatever he pleases. If the sexual organs are ordered to procreation and pleasure within marriage then masturbation is a disordered use of the sexual organs.

Again, I'm not trying to prove my belief right now, but merely to explain why consent is not the only moral criterion in my view.

The only thing you're saying here is that your objection is entirely predicated on scripture, not facts, nor logic. Your ideas are not your own.

First of all, I'm not sure if your last sentence is supposed to carry some argumentative force or not. Who has ideas that are their own? I can just about guarantee that every belief you hold is linked to a philosopher or politician or other thinker who held it before you and who has influenced you. And why is creativity more valuable that truth? If my opinion has been held by millions of people before me but is right, who cares?

Secondly, my belief against homosexuality is bolstered by revelation yes, but it's also available via the natural law alone.
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