Reality has arrived in politics concerning muslims!
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22-12-2015, 01:54 PM
RE: Reality has arrived in politics concerning muslims!
(22-12-2015 11:51 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You still haven't provided the UN report citing that number.

Because you just google for it and it comes up. UNICEF -- Results of the 1999 Iraq Child and Maternal Mortality Surveys". Federation of American Scientists.

Also see this wikipedia page which lists the various estimates of death from different sources. The UN number was 500,000.
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22-12-2015, 06:27 PM
RE: Reality has arrived in politics concerning muslims!
(22-12-2015 01:54 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 11:51 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You still haven't provided the UN report citing that number.

Because you just google for it and it comes up. UNICEF -- Results of the 1999 Iraq Child and Maternal Mortality Surveys". Federation of American Scientists.

Also see this wikipedia page which lists the various estimates of death from different sources. The UN number was 500,000.

Thank you. Your point is made but the numbers are debatable. Some points from your links.

1) Some commentators blame Saddam Hussein for the excess deaths during this period. For example, Michael Rubin argued that the Kurdish and the Iraqi governments handled Oil For Food aid differently, and that therefore the Iraqi government policy, rather than the sanctions themselves, should be held responsible for any negative effects.[52][53] Likewise, David Cortright claimed: "The tens of thousands of excess deaths in the south-center, compared to the similarly sanctioned but UN-administered north, are the result of Baghdad's failure to accept and properly manage the UN humanitarian relief effort."[18] In the run-up to the Iraq War, some[54] disputed the idea that excess mortality exceeded 500,000, because the Iraqi government had interfered with objective collection of statistics (independent experts were barred).[55]

2) Zaidi, S. and Fawzi, M. C. S., (1995) The Lancet British medical journal: 567,000 children.[41] A co-author (Zaidi) did a follow-up study in 1996, finding "much lower ... mortality rates ... for unknown reasons."[42]

42) "In the 1996 survey, relative neonatal and postneonatal mortality were estimated at 1·07 (95% CI 0·58–1·97) and 1·06 (0·45–2·54), respectively. The overall probability of death for children aged 0–5 years in the 5 years before the survey was estimated at 38 per 1000 persons at risk, which is several-fold lower than the estimate for 1995 (table)."

Table Probability of children dying by age for preceding 5 years before the survey, Baghdad, Iraq
Age-group 1995 1996
Neonatal (0 to <1 month) 0·135 0·019
Postneonatal (1 to <12 months) 0·054 0·015
Infant (0 to <12 months) 0·182 0·033
Child (12 to <60 months) 0·029 0·055
Child (0 to <60 months) 0·206 0·038

13.5% >> 1.9%
5.4% >> 1.5%
18.2% >> 3.3%
2.9% < 5.5%
20.6% >> 3.8%

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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22-12-2015, 07:19 PM
RE: Reality has arrived in politics concerning muslims!
(22-12-2015 06:27 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Some commentators blame Saddam Hussein for the excess deaths during this period.

Sure, but even if he misappropriated aid, it wouldn't have happened if the US hadn't attacked in the first place. Remember the US used to support Saddam because they wanted him to pummel Iran. In fact, one of the details everybody forgets is that Saddam was executed for dropping chemical weapons on the Kurds, but his partner in that crime was none other than Ronald Reagan. When Iran got the upper hand because Iraq's efforts were split between Iran and the Kurdish uprising, it was Reagan who authorized giving him chemical weapons to take care of the Kurds and focus on Iran. And after the attack, Reagan even provided a scape goat, claiming to the American public that intelligence reports indicated Iran had dropped chemical weapons on the Kurds, even though according to whisteblowers he knew the truth. And Saddam was such a lapdog of the US that when he wanted to invade Kuwait, he first invited the US ambassador, April Glaspie, to get her permission, and only invaded once she told him "the Kuwait issue is not associated with America".

The point is the US is constantly putting its nose in other countries business, and the middle east intervention has been going on since the overthrow of Iran's peaceful, modern, democratic government in 1952. Every single time the intervention backfires and makes things worse. And the proposed solution is simply MORE intervention. Every time the US bombs one of these countries it creates a big mess. And the proposed solution to fix the mess is to bomb more countries. Now Americans are trembling in fear because they're under attack by so many terrorists seeking revenge, and it's seriously eroding quality of life. But, even today, most of the American public believes the solution is to simply find another country to bomb. As that poll on bombing Agrabah shows, Americans are now even anxious to start bombing mythical countries from cartoons and banning entire religions. You're American, girly, why do you think Americans don't get tired of this? Do they like the drama? Is there some benefit to all this warmongering that I'm somehow not seeing? Do you think they'll ever tire of treating the world like a "Call of Duty" game and decide to let everyone else live in peace and focus on fixing their own house?
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22-12-2015, 07:45 PM (This post was last modified: 22-12-2015 08:04 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Reality has arrived in politics concerning muslims!
(22-12-2015 07:19 PM)frankksj Wrote:  The point is the US is constantly putting its nose in other countries business, and the middle east intervention has been going on since the overthrow of Iran's peaceful, modern, democratic government in 1952. Every single time the intervention backfires and makes things worse. And the proposed solution is simply MORE intervention.

I think the most costly and consequential act against maintaining stability in a fragile political environment in modern history was Cheney's obsession to take out Saddam Hussein. Fucker was no threat to the US and he was able to do what no one was able to do before. Suppress and contain the centuries long war between the Shiite and the Sunni by killing both of them if they got rambunctious. Saddam Hussein would have crushed ISIL between his testicles without even noticing it. ooops ... what was that?

US politicians are old luddites who don't understand that isolationism is not like it was when Yamamoto awakened the sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve. Next battlefront will be on the cyber front. No boots on the ground or bombs required. Infrastructure will be disrupted from a distance. China been waiting for us to go to IPV6 to exploit a shitload of already identified vulnerabilities. "What take you so long, you said 2000." Just this week Iranians hacked a NY dam.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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22-12-2015, 07:59 PM
RE: Reality has arrived in politics concerning muslims!
(22-12-2015 07:19 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Remember the US used to support Saddam because they wanted him to pummel Iran.

Yup. We also trained and outfitted Osama bin Laden and the Mujahideen against the Russkies. We are not very good at considering unanticipated consequences. In fact, we suck at it.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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22-12-2015, 08:08 PM
RE: Reality has arrived in politics concerning muslims!
(22-12-2015 07:59 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(22-12-2015 07:19 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Remember the US used to support Saddam because they wanted him to pummel Iran.

Yup. We also trained and outfitted Osama bin Laden and the Mujahideen against the Russkies. We are not very good at considering unanticipated consequences. In fact, we suck at it.

Stallone even sent Rambo in to "clean up".
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