Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
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11-07-2015, 10:32 AM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
(11-07-2015 05:37 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  It is true that immigrants used to make the country stronger. It is sadly not the case anymore. Each has their own group such as "African American, Mexican American, and so on". Each say they are separate from all the others and lowest of them all as far as the others are concerned, white males. They don't want equal rights, they want all the rights.

Firstly, if by "African-American" you mean blacks, well, they've been a part of the fabric of our country just as long as Europeans have been. The Europeans brought them here, remember. I've worked and served alongside blacks for all my 35 years in the workforce. They didn't speak a different language. They swore the same oath to defend the same country I did. They also have a different cultural history than whites do, and it's goddamned important that that history be remembered, because the repetition of that atrocity cannot be permitted, ever again.

As far as other groups not integrating, I haven't seen that at all. I live in SoCal for 20 years, and lived in two different heavily immigrant neighborhoods the last nine of those years. I saw folks who came here, worked their asses off, sent their kids to school, learnt what English they could from their kids when they came home. And don't get me started about matters like work ethic. Anyone who can do farmwork 12 hours a day, six days a week commands my respect. And that farmwork does indeed help make this nation stronger.

By the way, you never did support your claim that illegal immigrants get free healthcare with any data.

And this idea that the struggle for equal rights is a zero-sum game is silly. Simply because Juan has the same chance I do of getting a loan doesn't mean necessarily that my chance has gone down.

My family is multiracial: my brother-in-law is black, my nieces and nephew biracial, my son's mom's side of the family is Mexican-American with a little Filipino thrown in, and us Gossetts are white Europeans (with a little Blackfoot Indian in the mix). I like to think of us as what can be when people stop looking at in-group/out-group divisions, and focus instead on our common values.
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11-07-2015, 02:52 PM (This post was last modified: 12-07-2015 07:57 AM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
The concept of white privilege annoys me….even as I recognize its existence. If I assault someone in a convenience store (a felony), then swagger down the middle of the road and a cop stops me and tells me to get out of the road, and then I decide to assault the police officer (a felony), and attempt to remove his gun (a felony), and I get shot to death… then I had it coming. The color of skin is of little consequence when one is perpetrating felonies. White, black, or brown, you’re going down. Now, prejudice is something few white people experience in regards to receiving it. I agree. But like all complex issues, prejudice, racism, and discrimination are not an easily solved issue. However, white, black, or brown, if you don’t break the law, you won’t have to worry about the fact that the legal system is systemically racist. It is true that a white suspect will receive less time than a black suspect with the same background. That is institutional racism.

Cultural ignorance, low education, socio-economic issues, social disorganizational theory, and the apparent propensity to have a high criminogenic proclivity are all challenges for some demographic groups.

Statistics blurs the lines even more…

In accordance with FBI statistics, in 2012, Caucasians committed 4,006 murders, this demographic group consists of about 71% of the US population.

In accordance with FBI statistics, in 2012, African Americans committed 4,241 murders, this demographic group consists of about 13% of the US population.

This is a problem: this leads Law Enforcement, and the Legal system, and the Correctional system to develop prejudicial perspectives towards that demographic. Perhaps if those statistics dropped, attitudes would change with time. Don’t do the crime, don’t do the time, which would reverse the racial bias towards minorities who have to deal negatively with LE daily. The police are in high numbers in socially disorganized and high crime neighborhoods because that is where the crime is, lower the crime the police will go somewhere else. Easier said than done though. I do believe a lot of this is the chicken and the egg….people who create their destiny by breaking the law have little reason to complain about being in jail. Perhaps if we went in and threw money into those troubled neighborhoods, maybe people could be uplifted, and then they would walk away from crime because they had choices…let’s review a social experiment…

In the 1990s, a sociological theory was put in place called, Moving to Opportunity, in which there were three control groups offered various vouchers to move into better neighborhoods. After 4 to 7 years living in these better neighborhoods, we found that there was a decrease in arrests for violent and nonviolent crimes among females. This, however, was offset by the increase in property crime related arrests among males (Kling, Ludwig, & Katz, 2004). So it would seem that moving the low income, low education, higher propensity for crime demographic groups to better neighborhoods, just moves the crime into the better neighborhoods. The study showed that those that were moved didn't experience better grades or overall quality of life changes. The new neighborhood got to enjoy an increase in crime though. Hardly a fair, or viable solution.

This social challenge will most likely never be solved sadly. It requires higher education, high personal goals, avoidance of crime, over-coming of socio-economic issues…and then one can propel oneself to a successful life, regardless of the amount of pigment in your skin….you can even be the President of the United States.

References:

Henslin, J. M. (2015). Essentials of Sociology: A down to Earth approach. New York. Pearson Education, Inc.

Kling, J.R., Ludwig, J., Katz, L.F. (2004) University of Michigan. Web. Retrieved from http://www.npc.umich.edu/news/events/others/crime.pdf

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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13-07-2015, 07:10 PM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
(11-07-2015 02:52 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  The concept of white privilege annoys me….even as I recognize its existence. If I assault someone in a convenience store (a felony), then swagger down the middle of the road and a cop stops me and tells me to get out of the road, and then I decide to assault the police officer (a felony), and attempt to remove his gun (a felony), and I get shot to death… then I had it coming. The color of skin is of little consequence when one is perpetrating felonies. White, black, or brown, you’re going down. Now, prejudice is something few white people experience in regards to receiving it. I agree. But like all complex issues, prejudice, racism, and discrimination are not an easily solved issue. However, white, black, or brown, if you don’t break the law, you won’t have to worry about the fact that the legal system is systemically racist. It is true that a white suspect will receive less time than a black suspect with the same background. That is institutional racism.

Cultural ignorance, low education, socio-economic issues, social disorganizational theory, and the apparent propensity to have a high criminogenic proclivity are all challenges for some demographic groups.

Statistics blurs the lines even more…

In accordance with FBI statistics, in 2012, Caucasians committed 4,006 murders, this demographic group consists of about 71% of the US population.

In accordance with FBI statistics, in 2012, African Americans committed 4,241 murders, this demographic group consists of about 13% of the US population.

This is a problem: this leads Law Enforcement, and the Legal system, and the Correctional system to develop prejudicial perspectives towards that demographic. Perhaps if those statistics dropped, attitudes would change with time. Don’t do the crime, don’t do the time, which would reverse the racial bias towards minorities who have to deal negatively with LE daily. The police are in high numbers in socially disorganized and high crime neighborhoods because that is where the crime is, lower the crime the police will go somewhere else. Easier said than done though. I do believe a lot of this is the chicken and the egg….people who create their destiny by breaking the law have little reason to complain about being in jail. Perhaps if we went in and threw money into those troubled neighborhoods, maybe people could be uplifted, and then they would walk away from crime because they had choices…let’s review a social experiment…

In the 1990s, a sociological theory was put in place called, Moving to Opportunity, in which there were three control groups offered various vouchers to move into better neighborhoods. After 4 to 7 years living in these better neighborhoods, we found that there was a decrease in arrests for violent and nonviolent crimes among females. This, however, was offset by the increase in property crime related arrests among males (Kling, Ludwig, & Katz, 2004). So it would seem that moving the low income, low education, higher propensity for crime demographic groups to better neighborhoods, just moves the crime into the better neighborhoods. The study showed that those that were moved didn't experience better grades or overall quality of life changes. The new neighborhood got to enjoy an increase in crime though. Hardly a fair, or viable solution.

This social challenge will most likely never be solved sadly. It requires higher education, high personal goals, avoidance of crime, over-coming of socio-economic issues…and then one can propel oneself to a successful life, regardless of the amount of pigment in your skin….you can even be the President of the United States.

References:

Henslin, J. M. (2015). Essentials of Sociology: A down to Earth approach. New York. Pearson Education, Inc.

Kling, J.R., Ludwig, J., Katz, L.F. (2004) University of Michigan. Web. Retrieved from http://www.npc.umich.edu/news/events/others/crime.pdf


(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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13-07-2015, 09:54 PM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
Thank you, Rev, for posting the article...

GwoG-

I've been sitting here, trying not to explode over the comment about how one doesn't need to worry about the justice system if they're not committing felonies, or the assertion that whites are prone to commit less crimes, rather than simply being less-caught because they're less-policed, less-arrested, less-prosecuted, and/or come from neighborhoods/cultures that aren't based on behaviors that lead to violent outcomes. If whites had to walk around in places they were likely to get shot, carrying illegal (and thus cheaper) firearms, in a culture where white men came up to other white men to prove their manliness through violence, the statistics would be absolutely equal... showing the overall numbers of murders of that sort is only to show the exact White Privilege of which Metta complains in that article.

The sociological experiment doesn't show any propensity by race of committing crime, only that the (male) breadwinners of a group that has been systematically suppressed and denied the accoutrements of privilege (education, job preparedness, skills, etc) are likely to continue the previous behavior(s), like robbing their own neighborhood, in order to eat, even if you move them to a "nicer" neighborhood. It suggests that transplants are, by themselves, an utterly ineffective solution, and I'm a little shocked that any reputable sociologist would think it was the case. Indeed, I'd have been shocked if there was any other outcome!

Please, read "I, Racist" and then try to understand a little bit about systemic and institutionalized racism, then try again. Seriously, I ask please. I have seen the inside of both the "justice" system and the prison system much more closely than anyone you know, I assure you (more than most who are within the system, because of how hard I had to fight to eventually prove my innocence and go free, and my resources of money, family, and education which allowed me to do so in the first place!), and your characterizations of what law enforcement "must" do are not even worthy of discussion as currently framed, I'm sorry.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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13-07-2015, 10:24 PM (This post was last modified: 14-07-2015 12:09 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
Oh, and incidentally, I'm also less than 2 hours' travel from where the Michael Brown incident to which you were referring happened, in the state where it happened, and was imprisoned with some of his friends and family at the time.

Your characterization of what he did and how it ended up is both wrong and racist. None of the things you said are reality. We'll break it down point by point:

1."If I assault someone in a convenience store (a felony),"

He did not "assault someone in a store". I watched the video repeatedly; the owner of the store illegally barred his way because he took some mini-cigars (to go roll joints with) off the counter after the clerk refused to sell them to him (underage), and the owner continued to harange Michael until he turned and confronted the man (as any 17 year old would do when faced with a tiny person barking at them like that) to make him stop. The proper procedure would have been to simply write off the loss from his taxes, like a normal clerk, or to call the police and let them get his face from the video cameras over the $3.27 sale.

2."then swagger down the middle of the road and a cop stops me and tells me to get out of the road,"

It's not the middle of the road. It was a residential side-street, without even a stripe on it, as you can plainly see in the videos of the place. And it's racist as fuck to say he "swaggered" down the street. He walked. A standard racist police harassment tactic in St.Louis (and Missouri in general) is to tell black people where to go and how to behave, while white kids get by without equal harassment. That's why Michael was mad enough to argue with the cop about it. Michael was right. I would have been equally mad... but I'm white, and so I have that privilege.

3. and then I decide to assault the police officer (a felony),

It is entirely possible that the cop's testimony of being assaulted within his squad-car is accurate, but it's very strange, as his injuries were precisely what one would expect if struck by the door of the car while getting out too quickly, or if being pulled by a fleeing suspect whose arm/wrist he had reached out and grabbed through the side-window, as he himself asserted in testimony... not what one would expect if a person over 6' tall was attacking through a window at a seated person in a car. But we'll let this one go, since attacking an officer is not a death-penalty case unless you do it with a knife.

4. and attempt to remove his gun (a felony),

Bullshit! Bullshit bullshit bullshit. If you want to know why it is bullshit, borrow a plastic gun (or a real one) with holster and buckle it to your right hip (on a utility belt that also contains numerous other large items, such as radios and handcuffs and flashlight and pepper spray), opposite from the driver's side window, then have a friend (especially one of similar huge build to MB) try to reach in the car through the window and take that gun out of the holster. You don't have to fight back. Just sit there in your seatbelt and watch the difficulty of this physical action. The "he tried to take my gun" is a common police excuse when violence occurs. There's another recent video of a cop attempting that very same excuse, except he got caught at it. Saint Louis police are known for harrassing blacks in general, in a decades-long systemic racist treatment...along with most of the South.





And regardless of all that... he didn't "Have it coming". Unless he was at that moment charging the officer with a knife or bat in his hands, or had pulled a gun, there was zero reason that officer could not have retreated and waited for plenty of backup to arrive, instead of acting as judge, jury, and executioner. None of the things he did are Death Penalty felonies, even if he did them in the way you described (including "swaggering" down the street, whateverthefuck that is). It appalls me to even hear you or anyone else with an education say something like that. For all your claims to "it doesn't matter the tone of your skin", it's pretty clear that your own description of Michael Brown's behavior includes his skin-color, as I can't imagine someone describing middle-class white boys from YOUR neighborhood in that same tone. Ever. And I am one from a similar neighborhood, who did my share of mid-street "swaggering", waving at the cops who occasionally drove by without telling me where I had to walk.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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14-07-2015, 08:25 AM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
"Swagger" as a word has no racial component attached to it, so far as I know. I'm not arguing that its usage here was accurate, but attaching racial overtones to a race-neutral word strikes me as a case of looking to be offended.
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14-07-2015, 08:43 AM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
Where's the racism????

If Michael Brown had been Irish - you'd have never heard about this event.

...

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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14-07-2015, 09:27 AM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
(14-07-2015 08:43 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Where's the racism????

If Michael Brown had been Irish - you'd have never heard about this event.

...

Yeah cause the cop would not have executed him.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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14-07-2015, 09:52 AM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
(14-07-2015 09:27 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(14-07-2015 08:43 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Where's the racism????

If Michael Brown had been Irish - you'd have never heard about this event.

...

Yeah cause the cop would not have executed him.


Right --- white people NEVER get arrested, tried, convicted --- or wrongly killed...............

Facepalm

.......................................

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14-07-2015, 10:20 AM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
(14-07-2015 09:52 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(14-07-2015 09:27 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Yeah cause the cop would not have executed him.


Right --- white people NEVER get arrested, tried, convicted --- or wrongly killed...............

Facepalm

The likelihood is disproportionately reduced but had you read the linked article you would have seen examples. Is this another issue like guns where your reading comprehension is reduced to zero?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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