Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
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14-07-2015, 11:13 AM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
This must be another one of those subjects that you're so obsessed with - that you don't think other people should have an opinion.....


funny how that works.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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14-07-2015, 10:38 PM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
By itself the word "swagger" has no racial overtones, but as part of the description of the events that led to MB's death, to describe a black teenager walking down the street near his home as "swaggering" was to insert an element that was clearly biased. That would never have been the term used to describe a 17 year old white kid walking down a similar street in a mostly-white neighborhood, nor would it have caused a St.Louis cop to pull up and try to grab him. The officer admitted he did not know about the convenience store incident when he first stopped MB, or did not connect him to the incident. Only as a part of a systemic bias was this incident able to blow up into an event that caused the death of this kid.

The major component of the "I, Racist" article was to describe how, when talking about systemic racism that results in the death of black teens (and many other horrors), it is the abused feelings of whites, who feel they are being wrongly accused of personal racism, that seem to matter more than the lost lives. When I pointed out that the string of terms used to justify the death of an unarmed teenager were not well-founded, the discussion remained the same, exactly as pointed out in the article. It's the reason race discussions don't go anywhere in this country.

I'm a white, middle-class, generally "All-American" guy who lost a decade of his life to wrongful incarceration... it's a bit odd to suggest that any part of this discussion would include the idea that such things never happen to whites!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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14-07-2015, 10:53 PM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
I'm not arguing that the killing was just. I'm pointing out that saying "swaggering" is "racist" is horseshit. Calling his walk "swaggering" may well be biased, no doubt. But it doesn't have racial baggage like other terms do, like watermelon, water fountains, or profiling.

I don't disagree with your larger point, but you weaken it when you overstep the boundaries with such assertions not supported by facts. Asserting that someone is "swaggering" is not a racist comment, in and of itself.
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14-07-2015, 11:31 PM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
No, it is not racist by itself, as you say. But it can be, depending on context. If you use a word to add a particular overtone to a person's behavior that would not be used in the general case ("general" being the majority race/culture under otherwise identical circumstances), then it is biased against that person because of their race, in an attempt to place the blame for what happened squarely on the head of the victim. When you add shading (no pun intended) to a person's otherwise-innocent behavior, in this case walking down the street, by using a term that implies unfounded additional "attitude" (seriously, can you even imagine a person describing a white person walking down a residential street as "strutting"? What other context could that have but to imply he was "gangsta-walking" or something along that line?), then that "bias" is by definition racist, treating one race in a harsher manner than another under similar circumstances.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or belittle anyone here, but I am really, really, really familiar with Missouri law.

The assertion that was made without fact was that he was swaggering, instead of merely walking down the street, and that this swagger was one of the behaviors that justified being accosted by a police officer and told to change course. The full context was:

"If I assault someone in a convenience store (a felony), then swagger down the middle of the road and a cop stops me and tells me to get out of the road, and then I decide to assault the police officer (a felony), and attempt to remove his gun (a felony)"

In that very specific context, a string of alleged misbehavior that led to his death, it is not a big leap to call the use of the unfounded term racist, as it lends a particular skew to that portion of the string of events. It is especially an issue when simple physical impossibilities (as a scientist, I recommend the experimental method of determining what parts of the officer's testimony about Brown's actions were potentially true and which were physically impossible or deeply unlikely; if you think the scientific method is applied in courtrooms, then you have never been in one for long) are being alleged that seek to justify the behavior of the officer involved. Rather like our "Did Jesus Exist" or other Biblical discussions, we must weigh the testimony being alleged as fact against what we know of reality, and see if the event being described is improbable or even impossible, and whether a simpler, alternate explanation better fits the data. Try the "reach through the car side-window to remove an officer's gun in a holster on the far hip (for no apparent reason)" test, yourself!

Indeed, with the exception of the reaching for the gun (which I contend did not happen, except as an after-the-fact justification offered by the officer who seems to have let his emotions get the best of him in trying to subdue a defiant teenager, after he grabbed his arm and the teen pulled away), none of the above behaviors called felonies, including the one that was actually witnessed on camera in the first example, were felonies under law. It is only felony assault on an LEO in Missouri under circumstances where the officer is injured in more than a superficial way, done in certain construction or other controlled zones, or if by means of a deadly weapon or dangerous instrument, and then it is only a C-felony, which gets you 7 years maximum... the same penalty applied to stealing a car. Generally, battering an officer while trying to evade them is a Class-A misdemeanor (Revised Statutes of Missouri, Section 565.083.2). The same is true of the "assault" alleged against the convenience store owner (again, watch the video and see for yourself); it doesn't appear to even qualify for the misdemeanor version, in that instance, as the store owner initiated the contact and Brown did not pursue or continue to instigate once the other guy backed off. So why call them felonies? Why string it all together like that? See my point?

I did not say (or think) that you felt his killing was just. I doubt anyone here truly thinks that.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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15-07-2015, 09:17 AM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2015 09:21 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
I'm not arguing that the incident wasn't racially motivated. I'm not arguing that the cop's testimony was not biased -- it almost certainly was. And I'm not arguing that the bias was not racially-motivated. And I'm certainly not of the mind that Brown's death has any legitimate justification. I know you're not laying any accusations at me, I just wanted to make that clear for the readers who might not know otherwise.

I'm pointing out that "swaggering" is not a racist term. That's all. Simply because a racist uses a word in order to color reportage of an event, that word does not itself become a racist term, which is what you said. "Gangsta", on the other hand (along with "thug", and some other words) have had racial connotations added to them by dint of the fact that they have been adopted by racists as code-words to replace their much beloved pejorative "nigger" which is not acceptable anymore.

"Swaggering" could take on racist connotations if it were continually used to describe the behavior of a given ethnicity.



On a lighter note -- about "strutting" -- I'm old enough to remember the opening scene in Saturday Night Fever:





That white boy is most definitely strutting. Big Grin
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15-07-2015, 01:33 PM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
Excellent point, and I will therefore amend my phrasing:

It is my belief that, when used in the specific context of describing a black teenager walking down the residential neighborhood street in a manner that caused him to be accosted by police, as part of a pattern of behavior that led to the teen's death, that the use of "strutting down the street" was a racist code-phrase , used in lieu of the more obvious term "gangsta-walking". And I therefore leaped right to calling it racist without making the bridge of rhetoric.

Racist code words often used in politics to send coded messages to racist supporters without being overtly racist in a manner than can be "called-out" or detected easily by those who do not know:
http://ideas.time.com/2012/09/06/how-to-...cial-code/
http://www.theroot.com/articles/politics..._love.html

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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15-07-2015, 03:43 PM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
Well, I don't think it was even a code phrase. What I think it was was someone who got caught fucking up trying to spin every single aspect of the encounter to his benefit in order to justify his racially-inspired bias that led to Brown's killing.

It's a fine distinction, and I can see that we're both much more in agreement than disagreement on the matter, so forgive my nattering ... I'll cease my pedantry.
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15-07-2015, 05:41 PM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
Not to turn this into a pissing match but I have a question. I asked the same question back in the late 80s. I was assistant to the mayor of our community on Ft. Jackson. He is black. I was/am not well-versed when it comes to black culture having spent most of my years prior to this question in the middle of a corn field in Iowa.

I noticed that when driving from our court down a long curving road through housing that the teen boys who were black walked down the middle of the street while the white boys the same age walked on the sidewalks. This puzzled me. So, I asked the question because I knew JJ wouldn't get all crazed or offended about it. He said it probably came from the hood and and avoiding doorways and such where trouble could be hiding. Still puzzles me since most of these kids were military brats who had maybe visited 'the hood'.

Was my observation racist? Or was it simply an observation of what I saw on a daily basis?

Swagger, yeah, I hear that more when talking about black men...but I have also seen many who walk with a swagger. They walk with attitude, kind of smooth...white men don't seem to convey the same sort of movement even when trying to pull it off. In fact, most look like idiots when they try it.

I don't see that as racist either...just an observation. It's more about culture and who you associate with it seems to me...not the color of your skin.

I don't see swagger as anything other than a descriptive word.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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15-07-2015, 06:46 PM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2015 07:27 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
(13-07-2015 10:24 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Oh, and incidentally, I'm also less than 2 hours' travel from where the Michael Brown incident to which you were referring happened, in the state where it happened, and was imprisoned with some of his friends and family at the time.

Your characterization of what he did and how it ended up is both wrong and racist. None of the things you said are reality. We'll break it down point by point:

1."If I assault someone in a convenience store (a felony),"

He did not "assault someone in a store". I watched the video repeatedly; the owner of the store illegally barred his way because he took some mini-cigars (to go roll joints with) off the counter after the clerk refused to sell them to him (underage), and the owner continued to harange Michael until he turned and confronted the man (as any 17 year old would do when faced with a tiny person barking at them like that) to make him stop. The proper procedure would have been to simply write off the loss from his taxes, like a normal clerk, or to call the police and let them get his face from the video cameras over the $3.27 sale.

2."then swagger down the middle of the road and a cop stops me and tells me to get out of the road,"

It's not the middle of the road. It was a residential side-street, without even a stripe on it, as you can plainly see in the videos of the place. And it's racist as fuck to say he "swaggered" down the street. He walked. A standard racist police harassment tactic in St.Louis (and Missouri in general) is to tell black people where to go and how to behave, while white kids get by without equal harassment. That's why Michael was mad enough to argue with the cop about it. Michael was right. I would have been equally mad... but I'm white, and so I have that privilege.

3. and then I decide to assault the police officer (a felony),

It is entirely possible that the cop's testimony of being assaulted within his squad-car is accurate, but it's very strange, as his injuries were precisely what one would expect if struck by the door of the car while getting out too quickly, or if being pulled by a fleeing suspect whose arm/wrist he had reached out and grabbed through the side-window, as he himself asserted in testimony... not what one would expect if a person over 6' tall was attacking through a window at a seated person in a car. But we'll let this one go, since attacking an officer is not a death-penalty case unless you do it with a knife.

4. and attempt to remove his gun (a felony),

Bullshit! Bullshit bullshit bullshit. If you want to know why it is bullshit, borrow a plastic gun (or a real one) with holster and buckle it to your right hip (on a utility belt that also contains numerous other large items, such as radios and handcuffs and flashlight and pepper spray), opposite from the driver's side window, then have a friend (especially one of similar huge build to MB) try to reach in the car through the window and take that gun out of the holster. You don't have to fight back. Just sit there in your seatbelt and watch the difficulty of this physical action. The "he tried to take my gun" is a common police excuse when violence occurs. There's another recent video of a cop attempting that very same excuse, except he got caught at it. Saint Louis police are known for harrassing blacks in general, in a decades-long systemic racist treatment...along with most of the South.





And regardless of all that... he didn't "Have it coming". Unless he was at that moment charging the officer with a knife or bat in his hands, or had pulled a gun, there was zero reason that officer could not have retreated and waited for plenty of backup to arrive, instead of acting as judge, jury, and executioner. None of the things he did are Death Penalty felonies, even if he did them in the way you described (including "swaggering" down the street, whateverthefuck that is). It appalls me to even hear you or anyone else with an education say something like that. For all your claims to "it doesn't matter the tone of your skin", it's pretty clear that your own description of Michael Brown's behavior includes his skin-color, as I can't imagine someone describing middle-class white boys from YOUR neighborhood in that same tone. Ever. And I am one from a similar neighborhood, who did my share of mid-street "swaggering", waving at the cops who occasionally drove by without telling me where I had to walk.

"there was zero reason that officer could not have retreated and waited for plenty of backup to arrive, instead of acting as judge, jury, and executioner"

"A cop has the legal duty to stand his ground, he is not to retreat. He is to de-escalate a situation if possible, and he is to wait for backup, if possible, for an escalating situation, but retreating in the face of danger is not the expectation'...key word...IF POSSIBLE...right out of my police academy legal handbook.


I respect your opinion, even if it is in itself biased, as everyone's opinions are...based on their life experiences, upbringing, education and outlook. Nothing I said was racist, in fact, FUCK YOU for implying I am racist. You do realize I am an ex cop right? I may have a fucking clue about law enforcement, criminology, criminogenic forces, social disorganizational theory, the ignorant and belligerent attitude and SWAGGER of youth of ALL colors when interacting with the police. Been there, done that. Jacksonville Sheriff's Officer zone 2 for 4 years....It IS swagger, that slouched pants, SWAGGER with the chin up at an angle that I dealt with on a hourly basis with every interaction with inner city youth in zone 2, whether they were white, black or brown. The culture of ignorance that some citizens which reside in inner city slums embrace is an unfortunate result of a plethora of sociological reasons.

It is the attitude that gets the attention, it is the action and ongoing crime statistics for that neighborhood that gets the police presence. It IS a cultural problem across race lines and citizen/police lines. Statistics tell me that 4 out of every 10 traffic stops between the hours of midnight and 4am will lead to a solid arrest on the "big 5": Outstanding warrant, illegal gun, drugs, paraphernalia, or DUI. That is why we look for reasons to pull you over during those hours...it isnt harassment, it is policing. It is our job to find the bad guys and get them off the street. Dont want to get pulled over and checked between midnight and four in the morning and arrested for drugs? DOnt be out during that time with drugs in your car. simple. It is statistics that tell me that if I stop and frisk, or do a citizen contact on individuals walking down the street in high crime areas that I will find guns, drugs, or an outstanding warrant. Statistics tell me that all violent crimes are perpetrated by 13% of the population, guess what demographic that is? That isnt racist, that is factual. One cannot ignore facts just because it bruises your politically correct idealism. It is no wonder why more of that demographic get shot in violent confrontations with police. Outside of the "play with fire you're going to get burnt" issue, a systemic problem within the law enforcement community is the continuous exposure to the same suspect in the majority of arrests. This continuous exposure subconsciously leads one to believe when interacting with a member of that small demographic group, in an arrest incident, that odds are they will be violent....further experience on the street reinforces this perspective. This leads the law enforcement officers to make assumptions, and in concern of their own safety, go up the ladder of levels of force much faster than if they were facing a different citizen. That is wrong, but a challenging thing to overcome based on the copious amount of exposure to the same type of interaction over and over. This of course leads to the mutual distrust between minorities and the police.

Stop and frisk for example isn't harassment, this is statistic based policing. The sad thing is back in the 1970s the word used at roll call for BOLOs (Be On the Lookout) for African American suspects was "usual." Do you know why? Because when the sergeant was reading the BOLOS, "robbery last night at 12th street and Martin Luther King blvd liquor store, two usuals." That racist term was created because the usual suspect was....a black man. That is a fact derived by statistics. That created the sad reality that the majority of the criminals they dealt with were of African American descent.The job of Law Enforcement management is to analyze crime data, develop problem areas, profiles of suspects and create patrol tactics to counter this.....even if it ends up being the inconvenient, and politically incorrect fact of a specific demographic. Now, a large portion of that demographic are honest, hard working folks, who get treated like criminals because the police suspect anyone who fits that profile when interacting with them in an arrest or investigation. That falls into "Labeling theory" and this is a reality that will be hard to change. Hopefully society begins to find more effective ways to mentor young men to assist them in NOT becoming just another sad statistic...fulfillment of a stereotype that exists based on facts. It is a circular problem.

Are cops quicker to shoot a black man than a white? most likely...you know why? experience, statistics and fear. Are blacks subject to longer sentences than whites with the same background and charged crime? Absolutely, and THAT is systemic institutionalized racism. There are a lot of reasons why that is the reality. How does one avoid that then if one knows the system will stick it to you if you come through the turnstile? Don't fucking break the law.

By the way, in the police academy we practice that scenario you were calling bullshit bullshit bullshit on. They have a carseat and car door construct, they sit you in it with your batbelt on, the target is out the window to your left at about 5 feet., they tell you your right arm is injured or incapacitated, now draw your weapon with your other hand, and shoot the target in 3 seconds....go. Lot harder than you think. So if you are grabbing for my gun, which by the way IS a felony, and I can fight myself free, you are taking a bullet. My life at that moment is more precious to me than yours. If after you try to disarm me, and run, then turn around and charge your big 260 lb ass back at me, I will drop you, as that cop dropped that piece of shit criminal, it was a clean shoot, the forensics backed him up, even in the face of all the lying ass RACIST "witnesses" who just wanted to see a cop go down for shooting Saint Michael Brown...and a grand jury upon review of the FACTS agreed. The trial by biased, uneducated in the law, uninformed of the facts public court of opinions was, and is, irrelevant.

Now if you want to talk about a murder, that dumbass, piece of shit, murderous cop who shot that man running away in the back and then walked over and dropped the tazer next to him and called it in is something you can get enraged about, it enraged me as well. But Michael Brown was a clean shoot. Contrary to popular belief, a cop CAN defend himself. But continue on your rant, it is something I am used to hearing, zero facts and all emotion. Monday morning quarterbacking is all the rage in america right now.

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15-07-2015, 07:04 PM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
(15-07-2015 05:41 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Not to turn this into a pissing match but I have a question. I asked the same question back in the late 80s. I was assistant to the mayor of our community on Ft. Jackson. He is black. I was/am not well-versed when it comes to black culture having spent most of my years prior to this question in the middle of a corn field in Iowa.

I noticed that when driving from our court down a long curving road through housing that the teen boys who were black walked down the middle of the street while the white boys the same age walked on the sidewalks. This puzzled me. So, I asked the question because I knew JJ wouldn't get all crazed or offended about it. He said it probably came from the hood and and avoiding doorways and such where trouble could be hiding. Still puzzles me since most of these kids were military brats who had maybe visited 'the hood'.

Was my observation racist? Or was it simply an observation of what I saw on a daily basis?

Swagger, yeah, I hear that more when talking about black men...but I have also seen many who walk with a swagger. They walk with attitude, kind of smooth...white men don't seem to convey the same sort of movement even when trying to pull it off. In fact, most look like idiots when they try it.

I don't see that as racist either...just an observation. It's more about culture and who you associate with it seems to me...not the color of your skin.

I don't see swagger as anything other than a descriptive word.

I got plenty swagger. It's just really lame.

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