Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
15-07-2015, 07:15 PM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
(14-07-2015 11:31 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  No, it is not racist by itself, as you say. But it can be, depending on context. If you use a word to add a particular overtone to a person's behavior that would not be used in the general case ("general" being the majority race/culture under otherwise identical circumstances), then it is biased against that person because of their race, in an attempt to place the blame for what happened squarely on the head of the victim. When you add shading (no pun intended) to a person's otherwise-innocent behavior, in this case walking down the street, by using a term that implies unfounded additional "attitude" (seriously, can you even imagine a person describing a white person walking down a residential street as "strutting"? What other context could that have but to imply he was "gangsta-walking" or something along that line?), then that "bias" is by definition racist, treating one race in a harsher manner than another under similar circumstances.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or belittle anyone here, but I am really, really, really familiar with Missouri law.

The assertion that was made without fact was that he was swaggering, instead of merely walking down the street, and that this swagger was one of the behaviors that justified being accosted by a police officer and told to change course. The full context was:

"If I assault someone in a convenience store (a felony), then swagger down the middle of the road and a cop stops me and tells me to get out of the road, and then I decide to assault the police officer (a felony), and attempt to remove his gun (a felony)"

In that very specific context, a string of alleged misbehavior that led to his death, it is not a big leap to call the use of the unfounded term racist, as it lends a particular skew to that portion of the string of events. It is especially an issue when simple physical impossibilities (as a scientist, I recommend the experimental method of determining what parts of the officer's testimony about Brown's actions were potentially true and which were physically impossible or deeply unlikely; if you think the scientific method is applied in courtrooms, then you have never been in one for long) are being alleged that seek to justify the behavior of the officer involved. Rather like our "Did Jesus Exist" or other Biblical discussions, we must weigh the testimony being alleged as fact against what we know of reality, and see if the event being described is improbable or even impossible, and whether a simpler, alternate explanation better fits the data. Try the "reach through the car side-window to remove an officer's gun in a holster on the far hip (for no apparent reason)" test, yourself!

Indeed, with the exception of the reaching for the gun (which I contend did not happen, except as an after-the-fact justification offered by the officer who seems to have let his emotions get the best of him in trying to subdue a defiant teenager, after he grabbed his arm and the teen pulled away), none of the above behaviors called felonies, including the one that was actually witnessed on camera in the first example, were felonies under law. It is only felony assault on an LEO in Missouri under circumstances where the officer is injured in more than a superficial way, done in certain construction or other controlled zones, or if by means of a deadly weapon or dangerous instrument, and then it is only a C-felony, which gets you 7 years maximum... the same penalty applied to stealing a car. Generally, battering an officer while trying to evade them is a Class-A misdemeanor (Revised Statutes of Missouri, Section 565.083.2). The same is true of the "assault" alleged against the convenience store owner (again, watch the video and see for yourself); it doesn't appear to even qualify for the misdemeanor version, in that instance, as the store owner initiated the contact and Brown did not pursue or continue to instigate once the other guy backed off. So why call them felonies? Why string it all together like that? See my point?

I did not say (or think) that you felt his killing was just. I doubt anyone here truly thinks that.

Police are a protected class of citizen, anything done against them is of a higher level then normal citizens. Under Missouri law, the most serious assault crimes are assault in the first degree and assault in the second degree. Both of these crimes are felonies.

Assault in the First Degree Against Certain Victims

If the victim of an assault in the first degree is law enforcement officer, the crime is a Class A felony, regardless of what injury does or does not result from the offense. A Class A felony is punishable by 10 to 30 years (or even life) in prison.

(Mo. Ann. Stat. §§ 565.081, 558.011.)

A person is guilty of assault in the first degree if he:

attempts to kill another person,
or

knowingly causes or attempts to cause another person serious physical injury.

If a first degree assault results in serious physical injury to the victim, the crime is a Class A felony, which is punishable by 10 to 30 years (or even life) in prison. If a first degree assault does not result in serious physical injury to the victim, the crime is a Class B felony, punishable by five to 15 years in prison.

(Mo. Ann. Stat. §§ 565.050, 558.011.)

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-07-2015, 07:42 PM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
(15-07-2015 06:46 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Statistics tell me that 4 out of every 10 traffic stops between the hours of midnight and 4am will lead to a solid arrest on the "big 5": Outstanding warrant, illegal gun, drugs, paraphernalia, or DUI. That is why we look for reasons to pull you over during those hours...it isnt harassment, it is policing.

Well, looking for a reason to pull someone over when they aren't obviously being criminal doesn't strike me as good policing. Pretty sure there's no law against keeping odd hours. Basing your stops on statistics inherently dehumanizes your interactions,

(15-07-2015 06:46 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  It is our job to find the bad guys and get them off the street.

Your job is not just that. Your job is to find the bad guys and get them off the streets without infringing the rights of the other citizens.


(15-07-2015 06:46 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Dont want to get pulled over and checked between midnight and four in the morning and arrested for drugs? DOnt be out during that time with drugs in your car.

How do you know there are drugs in the cars before you stop it? That's right, you don't. And what that means is that, in your words, you're looking for a reason to pull people over. It's bullshit. Do your job without imputing your biases.

Do you ever wonder why even us law-abiding citizens don't trust you guys unless we know you? Reread your post from a civilian's perspective.

(15-07-2015 06:46 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  This continuous exposure subconsciously leads one to believe when interacting with a member of that small demographic group, in an arrest incident, that odds are they will be violent....further experience on the street reinforces this perspective. This leads the law enforcement officers to make assumptions, and in concern of their own safety, go up the ladder of levels of force much faster than if they were facing a different citizen. That is wrong, but a challenging thing to overcome based on the copious amount of exposure to the same type of interaction over and over. This of course leads to the mutual distrust between minorities and the police.

This is a fair point. But you're being paid to administer justice fairly. It is your job to address your own biases before they turn into Constitutional violations.

Explanations are not excuses.


(15-07-2015 06:46 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Are cops quicker to shoot a black man than a white? most likely...you know why? experience, statistics and fear.

Cold comfort to the bereaved family of the wrongly killed.

(15-07-2015 06:46 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Are blacks subject to longer sentences than whites with the same background and charged crime? Absolutely, and THAT is systemic institutionalized racism.

Even on your level, of addressing the problem on the street, that too is institutionalized, as you yourself have made plain by your appeal to statistics.

(15-07-2015 06:46 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  There are a lot of reasons why that is the reality. How does one avoid that then if one knows the system will stick it to you if you come through the turnstile? Don't fucking break the law.

Definite agreement. Being disadvantaged doesn't mean being destined to criminality.

(15-07-2015 06:46 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  By the way, in the police academy we practice that scenario you were calling bullshit bullshit bullshit on. They have a carseat and car door construct, they sit you in it with your batbelt on, the target is out the window to your left at about 5 feet., they tell you your right arm is injured or incapacitated, now draw your weapon with your other hand, chamber a round and shoot the target in 3 seconds....go. Lot harder than you think. So if you are grabbing for my gun, which by the way IS a felony, and I can fight myself free, you are taking a bullet. My life at that moment is more precious to me than yours. If after you try to disarm me, and run, then turn around and charge your big 260 lb ass back at me, I will drop you, as that cop dropped that piece of shit criminal, it was a clean shoot, the forensics backed him up, even in the face of all the lying ass RACIST "witnesses" who just wanted to see a cop go down for shooting Saint Michael Brown...and a grand jury upon review of the FACTS agreed. The trial by biased, uneducated in the law, uninformed of the facts public court of opinions was, and is, irrelevant.

Can you think of a nonlethal way to address this situation?

(15-07-2015 06:46 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Monday morning quarterbacking is all the rage in america right now.

You're an LEO. Part of your job is to have your actions reviewed by the citizenry for propriety. If you don't like it, turn in your badge.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Thumpalumpacus's post
15-07-2015, 07:52 PM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
Ya know, the more I think about the racist comment regarding the word swagger the more I realize some things.

I spent many of my growing up years in small town Iowa. Except for a couple of Korean wives, the population was white...ultra-white...mostly of German and/or Irish descent. But there was still a difference among different groups, for the most part.

You could pretty much tell who were the 'farmers' and who were the 'town' kids. Manner of dress, how they talked (the slang), hairstyles...some subtle, some not so much. We weren't country and city kids. I was from the big town...3,000 people. So, it's not like we were highly cultured or even exposed to much more than the farm kids.

But, in large part, the farm kids hung out with farm kids and the town kids with town kids. There was a difference that was based on the culture of each group. Within each group there were subgroups, of course...some of us town kids were considered hippies, I don't recall any farm kids that hung out with those of us called hippie freaks.

Recently I was looking at pics from my 40 year reunion and even those whose names I couldn't recall, I could still remember who were farm kids and who weren't.

There are certain traits that describe groups of people and it doesn't have to be racial.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Anjele's post
15-07-2015, 07:55 PM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
Exactly.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-07-2015, 07:57 PM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
I mainly only first knew the word swagger from guys at college and my friend Andy liked it becasue it was in this song..




After that I don't think it has even had much staying power. I've heard people use the term swagger jacker ironically over the years still but Swagger got slimmed down to simply Swag, meaning the gear and the style all in one. With all lingo, you gotta slim it down. So I think of the term swagger as the thing lingering that out of touch people would say about people from urban in-city culture.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-07-2015, 08:11 PM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
I'm disappointed that you deliberately misrepresented the laws of Missouri like that for your own purposes, given that I already linked you to the statutes that apply.

First-Degree Assault is a very specific crime. It essentially entails a murder attempt, as in firing a gun (etc) at them, and yes, it does carry the penalties you describe. You yourself started your description out with, "If the victim of an assault in the first degree is law enforcement officer", and then circled back around in your logic. It first must be established that an assault in the first degree, a very specific crime, was committed, then you establish other criteria, such as the nature of the victim (e.g. LEO). So what does it mean exactly? Well you left that part out, after you said:

"A person is guilty of assault in the first degree if he: attempts to kill another person, or knowingly causes or attempts to cause another person serious physical injury."

"knowingly causes or attempts to cause another person serious physical injury" is a very specific phrase in Missouri law. It is defined by statute. Ready?

"Serious physical injury, physical injury that creates a substantial risk of death or that causes serious disfigurement or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any part of the body; "
(bold emphasis and italics my own)

The situation remains as I initially described. Had MB actually pulled a gun and begun to fire at the officer, missing him, he would be guilty of the crime you have defined, badly, above, and which I had to clarify here. If he had hit him, he would be guilty of this AND of attempted murder. That's how Missouri charges this particular crime. (He would also get Armed Criminal Action, which enhances sentencing.)

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-07-2015, 08:48 PM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
Just noticed this on the previous page, after seeing the other links talking about it on page 18, heh, so I went back and took a while putting together an answer. Don't have an issue with most of it, other than what I wrote previously. So I'll cite the part to which I feel I must respond. Here you go:

(15-07-2015 06:46 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  By the way, in the police academy we practice that scenario you were calling bullshit bullshit bullshit on. They have a carseat and car door construct, they sit you in it with your batbelt on, the target is out the window to your left at about 5 feet., they tell you your right arm is injured or incapacitated, now draw your weapon with your other hand, and shoot the target in 3 seconds....go. Lot harder than you think. So if you are grabbing for my gun, which by the way IS a felony, and I can fight myself free, you are taking a bullet. My life at that moment is more precious to me than yours. If after you try to disarm me, and run, then turn around and charge your big 260 lb ass back at me, I will drop you, as that cop dropped that piece of shit criminal, it was a clean shoot, the forensics backed him up, even in the face of all the lying ass RACIST "witnesses" who just wanted to see a cop go down for shooting Saint Michael Brown...and a grand jury upon review of the FACTS agreed. The trial by biased, uneducated in the law, uninformed of the facts public court of opinions was, and is, irrelevant.

... But Michael Brown was a clean shoot. Contrary to popular belief, a cop CAN defend himself. But continue on your rant, it is something I am used to hearing, zero facts and all emotion. Monday morning quarterbacking is all the rage in america right now.

1. Grand Juries are a joke, and everyone knows it. They will indict (or not indict) a ham sandwich, based on what the prosecutor tells them to do, and every study of the subject backs that up. Surely you're aware of this, but are choosing not to face it. Fine.

2. No one is arguing that a cop cannot or should not defend himself. But we are also aware that self-defense claims by cops who let their emotions get the best of them and commit an act of murder are common, since they know as cops their motives are less subject to question than a regular man in an otherwise identical situation.

3. What does your training scenario, cool as it is to train you to do that (really!) with your left hand while the subject is so close, have to do with MB and whether or not he had a reason or the ability to draw the gun of an officer in its holster with the NOT INCAPACITATED cop fighting back? And it doesn't answer the question I actually asked: Why would this kid do that, and how could he, at his size, do that? I'm 5'9" and 175#, strong and quick-handed, trained all my life in martial arts, and I'm pretty sure I'd be unable to pull that off successfully. It just doesn't make sense, and if you weren't stuck in DEFEND MY FELLOW COP mode, you'd see that clearly. You're talking about ability to shoot him out the door while the right hand is incapacitated... a useful skill to have, for an officer! But I'm talking about the physical impossibility of going for the gun in the first place when you're as HUGE as Brown is. You used his "big 260 pound ass" size against him in every scenario where it applied (drug store, turning around at officer), but you want to ignore it when it comes time to ask how a guy that size could do what I couldn't do. I know, we ran the experiment several ways with one of the prison transport SUVs that we were repairing at the prison's auto-shop (we repaired their cars/bikes), with the Corrections Officers who were equally curious to know. No one pulled it off, even when the "officer" wasn't fighting back very hard. The angle is almost impossible. I hurt myself badly even trying it! At his big-ass size, I doubt he could even have gotten into that window to steal the whole car, if the officer wasn't there. Tongue

4. Is there something about my manner of speaking, writing, or thinking that implies to you that I am emotional about Michael Brown, biased against honest police, or untrained in law?

I have done my best, as an arbiter of many racial disturbances in the prison (a side-effect of the "Jailhouse Lawyer" job, which we call Law Clerking) to examine the issue as neutrally as possible. It appears to me that, regardless of what the official story says, the officer grabbed MB's arm after pulling up beside them on the street in a routine "Stop and Frisk, Missouri Edition™" type of "Point of Contact" (yes I know about that tactic) encounter. When the very large MB pulled away to break contact, it slammed the officer into his door-frame, damaging his eye-orbit/cheek. This enraged the officer, as did the derogatory comments the boys were doubtless slinging at the cop... and the rest was a downhill spiral. I think the ballistics and other forensics is unsupportive of the idea of a charging bull, as you seem to be implying. And even then, this kid would not represent a big enough threat to warrant a gunning-down unless he had a weapon or was in some other way an imminent danger of serious harm; given that backup was already on the way, and was less than one minute out, it's hard to say that he was reasonably in fear of his life. You know that, as an officer. You also know that EVERY TIME an officer is caught, unquestionably, killing a victim that the officer claims was an "imminent threat", there's the "I was afraid for my life and had to shoot" claim. Always. It's what they know to say to deflect blame after making a bad decision, in order to set up legal cover for themselves. So we the public have learned to be skeptical of such claims. I could be wrong, but when it comes to this particular testimony, given what I know about StL, I have to say I smell a big fat rodent. If I believed the officer was innocent, I would absolutely say so, and defend him with equal ferocity.

As bad as Jacksonville is (I grew up on St.Simon's Island, GA, by the way!) in places, imagine how bad things are between the cops in these towns in St.Louis, where actually-racist harrassment of the black communities and its corresponding hatred/mistrust of officers goes back generations. That's why it's so dangerous for you, even somewhere else, to interact with black detainees/suspects and, as you note, makes it more likely that Someone Gets Shot in either direction... a tragedy for Law Enforcement and civil order/peace/rights. Sad

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-07-2015, 09:05 PM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
(15-07-2015 07:57 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I mainly only first knew the word swagger from guys at college and my friend Andy liked it becasue it was in this song..




After that I don't think it has even had much staying power. I've heard people use the term swagger jacker ironically over the years still but Swagger got slimmed down to simply Swag, meaning the gear and the style all in one. With all lingo, you gotta slim it down. So I think of the term swagger as the thing lingering that out of touch people would say about people from urban in-city culture.

Out of touch by whose definition ? I Swagger 'cause I've been around long enough and worked hard enough to get the swag. I'm not out of touch. I'm just old(er).

The second mouse gets the cheese.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-07-2015, 09:33 PM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
I blame a certain muricn "news" network, for having a scrolling 'alert' above (what seems like) every story. If I tell u I'm not terrified; will you please stop? I know you like it, & it's you're new favorite toy, but I want the battery. Seriously, hand it over.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes 7R0MM3L's post
15-07-2015, 09:50 PM
RE: Really tired of people who claim America is being destroyed.
I walk as my dad taught me: boy, you should walk like you own everything you can see.

Is that a swagger, a strut, or a charade? I'm white and I don't know the deal.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: