Reason, Or Ideology?
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24-12-2014, 10:15 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(24-12-2014 09:44 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
Quote:As any good NRA member will tell you, when someone commits murder (or any other crime) with a gun, it's not the gun that's bad, but the person.

But we don't just hand out free guns to kids and crazy people, do we? That is, we recognize that while guns are indeed just a tool, a neutral element in and of themselves, there are limits to the usefulness of guns.

Quote:Guns literally are simply tools. They do not do bad things. People can use them to do bad things. Just like science. Blame the bad person for doing the bad thing -- don't blame the tool that they used.

Ok, to continue with your analogy...

Yes, the gun itself is just an object, just as science is just a method. Agreed.

So if we can't blame the gun itself, can we blame the person who mass produces guns and introduces them in to trouble spots around the world and so on?

In the very same way....

If we can't blame science itself, can we blame the scientists who mass produce and distribute knowledge IF we can show that knowledge is likely to lead to suffering for human beings?

OR....

Or is science and scientists the new religion and the new priesthood who can not be challenged in any way, upon pain of excommunication!! :-)

It sounds like you have a dogma that "science is the new religion" and are not going to allow any reasonable argument to challenge that dogma. Scientists are not forcing knowledge into places where it can do harm -- they are not doing the equivalent of "giving guns to children". In fact, when the knowledge is potentially harmful, as in the development of nuclear weapons, scientists do tread very carefully. There was a lot of soul-searching going on in the scientific community in the 1940s, and that knowlege was (and still is) carefully guarded. They didn't just put it out there for anyone to use. The judgment was that it was going to happen one way or another, and we better do it before Hitler does. Do you disagree with that? Would you rather live in the world that would have resulted from Hitler getting nuclear weapons before anyone else? Would you rather live in a world where scientists can't do anything without first getting permission from governments? Do you trust governments more than scientists? Bottom line: Scientists aren't the bad guys here. I wish you would stop pretending that they are.
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24-12-2014, 10:53 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
Quote:It sounds like you have a dogma that "science is the new religion" and are not going to allow any reasonable argument to challenge that dogma.

I will politely and gratefully respond to reasonable arguments, if I should come upon one.

Quote:Scientists are not forcing knowledge into places where it can do harm -- they are not doing the equivalent of "giving guns to children".

1) Did scientists invent nuclear weapons?

2) Did they then give these weapons to politicians, who are reasonably labeled children? :-)

3) Do 1 and 2 above put us in the situation where everything built at great cost over the last few thousand years can be largely erased in 30 minutes?

4) If Catholic priests had invented and shared nuclear weapons, would you be rationalizing their actions, and looking to place the blame elsewhere?

Quote:In fact, when the knowledge is potentially harmful, as in the development of nuclear weapons, scientists do tread very carefully.

Yes, they improved the A bomb in to the H bomb, very carefully.

Quote: There was a lot of soul-searching going on in the scientific community in the 1940s, and that knowlege was (and still is) carefully guarded. They didn't just put it out there for anyone to use.

You can find plans for building nuclear weapons on the Internet. The limiting factor is the enriched uranium, which is available in barely locked tool sheds all over Russia.

Quote:The judgment was that it was going to happen one way or another, and we better do it before Hitler does. Do you disagree with that? Would you rather live in the world that would have resulted from Hitler getting nuclear weapons before anyone else?

These are fair and reasonable questions. And I have one in return. Where is this going? That's what I'm trying to get readers to focus on. Where is this going? Do you want to go there?

Quote:Bottom line: Scientists aren't the bad guys here. I wish you would stop pretending that they are.

Bottom line: Posters in this and other similar threads are OBSESSED with the blame game dance because they see the new high priests as being under attack, and they are responding just as religious people do when they deities are insulted.

I'm not interested in painting scientists as the evil bogeyman. I'm interested in getting readers to focus on....

Where is all this ever accelerating knowledge development taking us?

If you have time to review the thread, you'll see literally no one is willing to address this.

The only thing members wish to do is defend their new chosen authorities from any challenge.
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24-12-2014, 11:00 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(22-12-2014 09:20 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Why is there a comma after "reason"?

No, seriously.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
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24-12-2014, 11:05 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(24-12-2014 10:53 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
Quote:Scientists are not forcing knowledge into places where it can do harm -- they are not doing the equivalent of "giving guns to children".

1) Did scientists invent nuclear weapons?

2) Did they then give these weapons to politicians, who are reasonably labeled children? :-)

I specifically addressed this point. They did not just give the weapons to politicians with no forethought. They did it, after a great deal of soul-searching, because the alternative (the possibility of Hitler being the first to get them) was worse. Do you have a better solution? Should they have just put their heads in the sand and allowed Hitler to conquer (or destroy) the world?
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24-12-2014, 11:22 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(24-12-2014 10:53 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  I will politely and gratefully respond to reasonable arguments, if I should come upon one.

I am sorry my previous points were seen as vapid and unreasonable. Perhaps pass on cues and clues as to what you might consider is a direction to take in replying that is not such?

(24-12-2014 10:53 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  ... More Atomic fear and loathing posting ......

I think I asked this of you before? Please get off your beating "Atomic anything" fears. It really is not working.

(24-12-2014 10:53 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  You can find plans for building nuclear weapons on the Internet.

Indeed one can. One can also find the plans for building a gun out of plumbing supplies... The internet is a wide, varied and scary place. Which of the two is more accessible to the average man?

(24-12-2014 10:53 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  The limiting factor is the enriched uranium, which is available in barely locked tool sheds all over Russia.

Citation plz.

(24-12-2014 10:53 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Bottom line: Posters in this and other similar threads are OBSESSED with the blame game dance because they see the new high priests as being under attack, and they are responding just as religious people do when they deities are insulted.

No... the only one throwing their fear and loathing about is yourself. pretty much all the replies are thoughtful measured and reasonable in their response. It is yourself who keeps throwing up the "Atomic bogeyman".

(24-12-2014 10:53 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  I'm not interested in painting scientists as the evil bogeyman. I'm interested in getting readers to focus on....

Well.... you're attempting guilt by association instead, perhaps?

(24-12-2014 10:53 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  The only thing members wish to do is defend their new chosen authorities from any challenge.

No... You are receiving calm and measured responses to your shrill and silly accusations. You are the one posting the challenges. Others are responding to your position which you then tend to ignore some posts and pick other replies to twist about to suit/meet your presupposed agenda.


Much cheers to all.
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24-12-2014, 11:31 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
Here's a new thread where we can hopefully sidestep the "are scientists to blame" issue.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ence-Works

Proposal: I could agree to stop talking about the people who are scientists, if you guys will agree to stop making all your posts about defending them. Let's agree that the vast majority of scientists are decent people with good intentions. Ok?

I apologize for allowing myself to be distracted from the points that really do interest me, which can be found here:

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ence-Works
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24-12-2014, 02:01 PM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(24-12-2014 08:00 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(23-12-2014 08:31 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  It just is a method,

Guns are just a tool, therefore guns are good, and we should have as many as possible.

Repeating "science is just a method, science is just a tool" over and over and over throughout the thread tells us nothing about whether use of this tool is leading us to paradise or hell.

All you're doing is trying to protect the holiness of science, and keep it safe from any blame whatsoever. Science Fundamentalism.


I'm not talking about this "relationship" angle because there is no reason to take you as an honest not disingenuous person until you accept any concept outside of your own interpretation of peoples reasons for saying something..

An analogy that makes no sense has no point in being used.

I'm not protecting anything. I'm just not having a conversation with someone who is so blinded by an agenda they will compare a method of observe, Hypothesizing, test, analyze, and compare to good/bad. You realize one has to accept sugh a thing as GOOD or BAD exists in that case.. or that there is a real paradise/hell option available. You keep presupposing ideas into what others are saying and what you think the rest of people who don't agree with you think.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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