Reason, Or Ideology?
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16-12-2014, 02:57 PM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
Rationalism is not the opposite of ideology. It is entirely possible to have a reasoned ideology and rare to find somebody who will claim that their ideology is not rational.

Try rationality and irrationality if you want to use meaningful terms. Not that you can measure either objectively.

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16-12-2014, 03:19 PM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(16-12-2014 02:56 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Ok, thanks, good points. That's better.

I'm trying to point to the difference between the person who will follow the evidence where ever it may lead, and the person who is only interested in evidence that supports a particular position.

So, for example, a person could be an ideological reasonist, if they insist reason is the only valid process for examining a set of questions, and they earnestly resist and discard any evidence that doesn't point to that conclusion.

This seems relevant to me, because if an atheist wishes to offer reason as an alternative to religion, ideally they will have to sidestep of the trap of making atheism in to just another competing ideology, that is, a collection of beliefs which must be defended at all costs etc.

To the degree an atheist falls in to that trap, it might be said that all they've done is trade one religion for another.

I realize my words are imperfect, so try to improve upon them please, that's what forums are for.

No atheist offers reason as an alternative to religion. Reason is just another word for logic. Logic may be applied to everything, you can use it whether you are an atheist or not.

What an atheist may say is "use reason and you will dismiss religion". That's far from saying that reason is an alternative to religion.

For example, I first realized I was an atheist and then I realized that I had become an atheist because I was unconsciously using reason. I didn't "read about reason" and decide to chose it over religion.

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16-12-2014, 03:27 PM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
Quote:No atheist offers reason as an alternative to religion.

Oh c'mon... No atheist offers reason as an alternative to religion?

Quote:Reason is just another word for logic. Logic may be applied to everything, you can use it whether you are an atheist or not.

Agreed of course.

Quote:What an atheist may say is "use reason and you will dismiss religion". That's far from saying that reason is an alternative to religion.

The religious believer says their holy book delivers the best answer, the atheist says reason delivers the best answer. Competing authorities.

Quote:For example, I first realized I was an atheist and then I realized that I had become an atheist because I was unconsciously using reason. I didn't "read about reason" and decide to chose it over religion.

Yes, that's it. You assumed reason was qualified to address the question, took it as an obvious given. You had faith, faith in reason, an unexamined faith.

To examine that faith, to bring it out in to the open, to challenge and test it, we have to ask whether reason is so qualified. We have to present reason with the very same rigorous tire kicking we would apply to religion. We can't just assume that reason is so qualified as a matter of faith, or we aren't doing reason.
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16-12-2014, 03:36 PM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(16-12-2014 03:27 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Oh c'mon... No atheist offers reason as an alternative to religion?

Not really. They probably offer "non-religion" as an alternative to religion and "reason" as an alternative to, I don't know, ignorance maybe?

(16-12-2014 03:27 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  The religious believer says their holy book delivers the best answer, the atheist says reason delivers the best answer. Competing authorities.

Does the religious believer use reason in the process of accepting their holy book's answer?

(16-12-2014 03:27 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Yes, that's it. You assumed reason was qualified to address the question, took it as an obvious given. You had faith, faith in reason, an unexamined faith.

To examine that faith, to bring it out in to the open, to challenge and test it, we have to ask whether reason is so qualified. We have to present reason with the very same rigorous tire kicking we would apply to religion. We can't just assume that reason is so qualified as a matter of faith, or we aren't doing reason.

How could I possibly have faith in reason before even realizing what "reason" is?

Do you even know what the word "reason" means?

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16-12-2014, 03:49 PM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(16-12-2014 03:36 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  How could I possibly have faith in reason before even realizing what "reason" is?

Great question, thanks.

You've used reason a million times in your every day life, and it usually worked well for you. So it's natural to apply reason to the next question that comes along.

The understandable but unexamined assumption is that reason is good for X so it will be good for Y as well.

Except that, like any tool, reason isn't good for every job. You know, it's kind of hard to fall in love using reason, as example.

And so before we blindly apply reason to the infinite scale type questions that religion addresses, we should first ask if reason is qualified for such a job.

Only after we have proven that reason is so qualified should we proceed to use it as trusted authority, in regards to this particular set of questions.

We shouldn't accept reason's authority blindly in much the same way a religious person might blindly accept the authority of their holy book.

We should challenge reason's authority to address such huge questions with the same vigor and rigor we reasonably challenge and test the authority of holy books.

If we won't challenge reason's authority in this way, we aren't reasonists, but ideologists.

Imho, atheists will never defeat theists at the ideology game, because thousands of years of evidence clearly demonstrate that theists are true masters of the ideology game.
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16-12-2014, 04:00 PM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(16-12-2014 03:49 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 03:36 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  How could I possibly have faith in reason before even realizing what "reason" is?

Great question, thanks.

You've used reason a million times in your every day life, and it usually worked well for you. So it's natural to apply reason to the next question that comes along.

The understandable but unexamined assumption is that reason is good for X so it will be good for Y as well.

Except that, like any tool, reason isn't good for every job. You know, it's kind of hard to fall in love using reason, as example.

And so before we blindly apply reason to the infinite scale type questions that religion addresses, we should first ask if reason is qualified for such a job.

Only after we have proven that reason is so qualified should we proceed to use it as trusted authority, in regards to this particular set of questions.

We shouldn't accept reason's authority blindly in much the same way a religious person might blindly accept the authority of their holy book.

We should challenge reason's authority to address such huge questions with the same vigor and rigor we reasonably challenge and test the authority of holy books.

If we won't challenge reason's authority in this way, we aren't reasonists, but ideologists.

Imho, atheists will never defeat theists at the ideology game, because thousands of years of evidence clearly demonstrate that theists are true masters of the ideology game.

Falling in love does not require answers. Religion does. Not a very good example. Not to mention that falling in love might be dangerous exactly because it defies reason.

Why ignore the rest of my questions?

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16-12-2014, 04:12 PM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(16-12-2014 04:00 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Falling in love does not require answers. Religion does.

Real religion doesn't require answers imho, but I guess that's another thread.

Quote:Not to mention that falling in love might be dangerous exactly because it defies reason.

Yes, falling in love is very obviously quite dangerous. And everybody wants it anyway.

Quote:Why ignore the rest of my questions?

Time is limited, and I'm trying to ignore drive by quips (from anybody) devoid of any real point. I can see you can ask good questions, and make good points, so more of that, and less of the quips, and you'll get better results.
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16-12-2014, 04:17 PM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(16-12-2014 04:12 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Time is limited, and I'm trying to ignore drive by quips (from anybody) devoid of any real point. I can see you can ask good questions, and make good points, so more of that, and less of the quips, and you'll get better results.

I don't ask questions for no reason. If we can't agree on what "reason" means and you avoid important questions, there's no reason for me to go on here.

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16-12-2014, 04:33 PM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(16-12-2014 03:49 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  You've used reason a million times in your every day life, and it usually worked well for you. So it's natural to apply reason to the next question that comes along.

Quite. The empirical evidence that using reason is a good way to resolve questions is extensive. That makes relying on reason different than relying on faith.

Quote:The understandable but unexamined assumption is that reason is good for X so it will be good for Y as well.

As the empirical evidence has shown repeatedly.

Quote:Except that, like any tool, reason isn't good for every job. You know, it's kind of hard to fall in love using reason, as example.

Right. Using reason first makes sense because it usually works but emotions often defy reasons.

Quote:And so before we blindly apply reason to the infinite scale type questions that religion addresses, we should first ask if reason is qualified for such a job.

Only after we have proven that reason is so qualified should we proceed to use it as trusted authority, in regards to this particular set of questions.

No, we should see where reason takes us and then determine if there is more. Reason is the best tool we have for determining what is true and what is not. Your "falling in love" example is not the same because it isn't addressing a truth claim like 'there is a god' or 'jesus was resurrected'.

If somebody devises a better tool for the job then that would be a different matter. Until then we have reason and we have emotion and we have faith and, of the three, only reason has a chance of finding answers.

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17-12-2014, 02:58 PM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
Our reason can be marred by ideology, the point of this thread. Although it is reasonable to believe in Jesus Christ through reading the scriptures, it is not reason alone that can save. If someone's ideology is based in the desire to uphold truth even at personal cost, they will trust Jesus. I've encountered many people who agreed the Bible is offering claims of salvation as a free gift but they refuse the gift to retain control of their lives. These are theists and not just atheists I'm speaking of.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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