Reason, Or Ideology?
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21-12-2014, 09:38 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(21-12-2014 09:04 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  If, as is reasonable to predict, the fruits of science lead to the collapse of civilization, will we still be able to say that "science works"?

Science built the bomb.

Science does not make the decision to push the button.

Science made vaccines.

Science does not make decisions not to vaccinate children.

Science helped us to understand the process of reproduction.

Science does not force us to use reproduction to overpopulate the planet.

Science works.

People screw it up.

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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21-12-2014, 09:55 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(21-12-2014 09:38 AM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  Science works. People screw it up.

I agree that science works at developing knowledge, that seems true beyond doubt.
It also seems true that people will usually screw it up somehow.

So where does that leave us?

Should we continue to seek more and more knowledge at faster and faster rates? Do we want to give humans more and more things to screw up in bigger and bigger ways?
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21-12-2014, 10:06 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
Bozo, let's start your morning with all the things that work. In other words, they function correctly as they were intended to function and even when they fail, they fail according to the laws of physics.

You wake up in bed with soft sheets, a comfortable pillow and a warm blanket all made in factories and tested to be fairly durable, non-allergenic. The matress is probably fire resistant. That alarm clock going off and all the circuitry inside - products of science.

The room you are in, the windows that allow light to come in and keep the cold out, the electrical sockets that power the alarm clock, let alone the power plant that provides the electricity - all products of science.

The carpet or wood floors you walk on, the paint on the walls made with a special chemical additive that helps to prevent mold,

Everything in and outside of your house that you use on a daily basis are products of science.

The points you made about nuclear weapons, global warming are true because the science that created them does work. Those bombs work. The chemistry involved in global warming works. Science is the only way any of this works.

There is no faith in science. There is only the unchanging physical nature of physics.
We try to understand how things work and create tools that help us to live, longer and better lives.

Unfortunately some of the discoveries we've made also have the potential to harm as much as they help.

Faith provides nothing.
Science provides nearly everything we use day in and day out.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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21-12-2014, 10:12 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(21-12-2014 09:04 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  If, as is reasonable to predict, the fruits of science lead to the collapse of civilization, will we still be able to say that "science works"?

What supports your statement that it's reasonable to predict that? The fruits of science are surgery, wheelchairs, cures for diabetes and other diseases, beside cars, computers, clothes, heating systems, and so on. Everything has potential bad consequences, so you see humans creating weapons, but that is a misuse of knowledge, not the intended one.

Water is necessary for you to live, and it's even enjoyable. But drink too much of it and you'll die.

(21-12-2014 09:04 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Your blind unexamined faith in science is a by-product of your blind unexamined faith in human reason. It is not all proven that the path we are on is leading to something that "works". You believe that on faith.

Stop chanting the memorized group consensus. Think for yourself. Challenge everything. Investigate everything. Kick every tire, turn over every box, and see what's really inside for yourself.

We trust science because it works. Literally everything we have achieved technologically-wise and not only that has been thanks to science. We don't need faith, we have evidence surrounding us. Including the computer you're using to post on this forum.

孤独 - The Out Crowd
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21-12-2014, 11:13 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(21-12-2014 10:06 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Faith provides nothing.

Faith, your faith in science, never ending knowledge development, and what you call "progress", provides you with a sense of comfort that things are headed in generally the right direction, a feeling you have a future you can look forward to.

It's the very same process that unfolds in theists as they create a trusted authority called "god" and a happy future they call "heaven".
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21-12-2014, 11:21 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
Quote:What supports your statement that it's reasonable to predict that?

All out wars using every available weapon are an utterly routine part of human history. And now we have weapons that can erase human civilization in 30 minutes.

Beyond that, the overall pattern is that knowledge develops exponentially, while wisdom develops incrementally if we're lucky. Thus, there is an ever greater gap between power and judgement. We're ever more like the 12 year kid whose been given the keys to the car, a case of booze, and a loaded handgun.

Quote:The fruits of science are surgery, wheelchairs, cures for diabetes and other diseases, beside cars, computers, clothes, heating systems, and so on. Everything has potential bad consequences, so you see humans creating weapons, but that is a misuse of knowledge, not the intended one.

Right, I agree it generally starts off with good intentions. We cure all these diseases. And then we wind up with 7 billion people on the planet, soon to be 10 billion. And each of them wants ever more, more, more.

Quote:We trust science because it works.

Yes, science works at developing ever more knowledge, at ever faster rates. We agree on this.

The group consensus assumption is that this is a good thing. I'm questioning that assumption.
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21-12-2014, 11:23 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(21-12-2014 11:13 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(21-12-2014 10:06 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Faith provides nothing.

Faith, your faith in science, never ending knowledge development, and what you call "progress", provides you with a sense of comfort that things are headed in generally the right direction, a feeling you have a future you can look forward to.

It's the very same process that unfolds in theists as they create a trusted authority called "god" and a happy future they call "heaven".

My future requires me to live to see it. It requires me to be responsible for my actions.
Your future is a bullet in the head. Enjoy that.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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21-12-2014, 11:30 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
At work.

(21-12-2014 11:13 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Faith, your faith in science, never ending knowledge development, and what you call "progress", provides you with a sense of comfort that things are headed in generally the right direction, a feeling you have a future you can look forward to.

It's the very same process that unfolds in theists as they create a trusted authority called "god" and a happy future they call "heaven".

Simply? No.

You seem to be the only one in these threads projecting a diety into/onto sceince.

Again, perhapse it is the education of people etc which is the question you should be asking. Or maybe asking after phylosophy not science?

Much cheers to all.
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21-12-2014, 11:35 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(21-12-2014 11:21 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Yes, science works at developing ever more knowledge, at ever faster rates. We agree on this.

The group consensus assumption is that this is a good thing. I'm questioning that assumption.

Assuming for the sake of discussion that it is not a good thing, what do you suggest as an alternative?

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Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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21-12-2014, 11:43 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(21-12-2014 11:35 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Assuming for the sake of discussion that it is not a good thing, what do you suggest as an alternative

We have learned that a more is better relationship with food sooner or later transforms from a good thing in to a bad thing.

As an alternative, I suggest we start learning that about knowledge as well. More does not automatically equal better.

Just as it took a great deal of effort to expand knowledge, it will likely also be a big challenge to learn how to limit knowledge.

We won't make much progress on that so long as we are still blindly plowing forward with the "more = better" philosophy. A change will start with the first step of realizing more does not automatically equal better.
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