Reason, Or Ideology?
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23-12-2014, 07:22 PM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(23-12-2014 06:17 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
Quote:For endless centuries one of the reasons people have turned to religion is so they can pose as being superior to somebody else, social competition.
Quote:Really? Can you provide evidence of that?


Yes, all religious wars.

Quote:That very same process continues today, except today many wave the science flag of superiority, instead of the Muslim or Catholic or Jewish etc flag of superiority. Very same process.

Quote:What process? It is not about superiority, it is about what works.

This is true for a great many people. Not so much on atheist forums though.

And to be fair to atheist forums, our whole culture now tends to look to science in much the same way we used to look to religion. We want to know that somebody is in charge, knows what's happening, is leading us to a better place and so on.

We used to look to Jesus and the Pope etc to be these trusted authorities, but many can no longer believe in those guys, so the need looks elsewhere for a new and better authority to trust, to follow. ,It's completely understandable, as science does excel at delivering the goodies.

The point here is that human beings need to know, just as birds fly and fish swim. So if one authority is dethroned, we will immediately seek out another. This is why religions have persisted in every corner of the world for thousands of years, and why our modern culture has developed a religious-like relationship with science.

I'm not arguing with science, because as members have correctly pointed out, it's just a tool. I'm arguing with that religious-like relationship with science, because it is that blind following that gets us in to trouble no matter the authority is.

As example, that blind relationship of trust in science has our entire culture assuming that "progress" is the only way forward, and that the new god science will take us there.

But what the evidence actually suggests is that the accelerating out of control development of knowledge is likely leading us towards a big cliff. I think most of us realize this on some level, but we don't know what else to believe in, what else to follow, so we keep marching like lemmings towards the cliff.

All I'm advocating is that we aim the very same critical eye we aim at religion at science too. Some religion can be good, too much religion is usually bad. Some science can be good, but that doesn't automatically equal more science being better.

We need to admit the science worship business to ourselves, and then we need to drop the science worship. And then we will be in a position to ask how much science is enough, and how much is too much.

Quote:It doesn't matter who invented nuclear weapons; how is that germane?

It's germane because it illustrates the science worship phenomena. See how you dodged the issue yet again? Science worship.

If we give scientists a free pass for inventing nuclear weapons, but we would have BLAMED!! Catholics if they had done the very same thing, we are experiencing science worship.

Quote:Nope. Politicians decided that scientists do the research and development of atomic, then nuclear, weapons.

More science worship, worship, worship. I'm convinced you would NOT being offering a free pass if the inventors of nukes had been Catholic clergy, and that you probably aren't intellectually honest enough to admit that.

You don't want to admit to the science worship, because then you'd have to do something about, and would be left with nothing to worship. And it's not just you, but our entire culture, marching like science worshiping lemmings towards the cliff.

Chas Wyman perhaps?

That was the most garbled bunch of non sequiturs to appear here in a long while.
Your responses made little to no sense at all.

You continue to assert without evidence; I think everyone here will dismiss your asinine statements.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-12-2014, 08:07 PM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
Quote:Are there some people with a scientific fundamentalism... YES, is that that the main method of science no.

Like I actually said, I'm concerned with our RELATIONSHIP with science.

If you want to see the fundamentalism I'm talking about, read this forum. Every time I challenge science, knowledge development in general, or our relationship with science, in any way whatsoever, every poster rushes to the defense of the "one true way". Catholic forums are more self critical than that.

Quote:Science in itself is a process, a process that is being tested in every moment to continually show results that work and have collaboration across fields and peoples international experience. It's just a system and a process that continually shows success.

This is what I mean, right here, in your own words. Will you still proclaim the success of science after we've reduced the planet to radioactive rubble? Will you still say, "Yup, science was a great idea, it's the one true way!!" It appears to me you aren't willing to challenge science, or our relationship with science, in anyway whatsoever, and that is fairly called a kind of fundamentalism.

All the evidence points to exploding knowledge development leading to some kind of global calamity, but you guys keep chanting, "science is great, science is wonderful, science works etc". Do you get it? Blind obedience to science! It's the new religion....

Sorry for the outburst, but you guys are doing the very thing with science which you reasonably state is bad in regards to religion. You are closing your eyes, turning off your minds, and blindly following the science prophets without thought to where they may be leading all of us. Lemmings rushing for the cliff...

We all agree religion should be challenged. Where we differ is that I think all authorities should be challenged. Blind faith in science is just as dangerous as blind faith in religion.

So let's see some posts which challenge the scientists to tell us, how much knowledge is enough, and how much is too much?
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23-12-2014, 08:31 PM (This post was last modified: 24-12-2014 05:02 AM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(23-12-2014 08:07 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
Quote:Are there some people with a scientific fundamentalism... YES, is that that the main method of science no.

Like I actually said, I'm concerned with our RELATIONSHIP with science.

If you want to see the fundamentalism I'm talking about, read this forum. Every time I challenge science, knowledge development in general, or our relationship with science, in any way whatsoever, every poster rushes to the defense of the "one true way". Catholic forums are more self critical than that.

Quote:Science in itself is a process, a process that is being tested in every moment to continually show results that work and have collaboration across fields and peoples international experience. It's just a system and a process that continually shows success.

This is what I mean, right here, in your own words. Will you still proclaim the success of science after we've reduced the planet to radioactive rubble? Will you still say, "Yup, science was a great idea, it's the one true way!!" It appears to me you aren't willing to challenge science, or our relationship with science, in anyway whatsoever, and that is fairly called a kind of fundamentalism.

All the evidence points to exploding knowledge development leading to some kind of global calamity, but you guys keep chanting, "science is great, science is wonderful, science works etc". Do you get it? Blind obedience to science! It's the new religion....

Sorry for the outburst, but you guys are doing the very thing with science which you reasonably state is bad in regards to religion. You are closing your eyes, turning off your minds, and blindly following the science prophets without thought to where they may be leading all of us. Lemmings rushing for the cliff...

We all agree religion should be challenged. Where we differ is that I think all authorities should be challenged. Blind faith in science is just as dangerous as blind faith in religion.

So let's see some posts which challenge the scientists to tell us, how much knowledge is enough, and how much is too much?

I'm saying Science is tested to work. That's it. Why would mean anything else you claim it means?. I even simply said, it doesn't matter anything good/bad is your attached perspective illogically added to this.

You may be talking about the "relationship with science." I'm not. I completely reiterated that point about this topic. For you to read anything I said that way is poor reading comprehension. Maybe you claim your topic is all about that, I don't care, I responded directly to a couple of post interactions I saw you have with Chas not about relationship, but merely the method. I wouldn't begin the conversation of the relationship with you until I saw you reasonable understood the difference between application and theory

Do you understand we are not in an all or nothing scenario in discussion or reality? It just is a method, I'm not saying anything about taking it to as far as it can go or not take it as far as it can go. You want to assert others are doing what you want to rail against, that's irrational communication.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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24-12-2014, 02:35 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
I was half way through a long thought out response, when it got deleted. so instead I'm just going to call you all a bunch of fucking retards and call it a night.

*note: That was not the content of my response and I don't really think that, I'm just really pissed.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
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24-12-2014, 02:40 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
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24-12-2014, 08:00 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(23-12-2014 08:31 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  It just is a method,

Guns are just a tool, therefore guns are good, and we should have as many as possible.

Repeating "science is just a method, science is just a tool" over and over and over throughout the thread tells us nothing about whether use of this tool is leading us to paradise or hell.

All you're doing is trying to protect the holiness of science, and keep it safe from any blame whatsoever. Science Fundamentalism.
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24-12-2014, 08:37 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(23-12-2014 08:07 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  So let's see some posts which challenge the scientists to tell us, how much knowledge is enough, and how much is too much?

Too much knowledge: the cure for whatever condition or disease will eventually kill you.

Too much knowledge: whatever process gave you a computer and access to the Internet.

Enough knowledge: whatever provides me with running hot water and flush toilets.

You're throwing the baby out with the bath water.

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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24-12-2014, 08:55 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
Trying to get a fresh start...

Now addressing the subject of science and knowledge development here:

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ence-Works
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24-12-2014, 09:35 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
(24-12-2014 08:00 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(23-12-2014 08:31 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  It just is a method,

Guns are just a tool, therefore guns are good, and we should have as many as possible.

Repeating "science is just a method, science is just a tool" over and over and over throughout the thread tells us nothing about whether use of this tool is leading us to paradise or hell.

All you're doing is trying to protect the holiness of science, and keep it safe from any blame whatsoever. Science Fundamentalism.

As any good NRA member will tell you, when someone commits murder (or any other crime) with a gun, it's not the gun that's bad, but the person.

Note that this comment is somewhat tongue-in-cheek (I'm not a big fan of the NRA), but they do have a valid point here. Guns literally are simply tools. They do not do bad things. People can use them to do bad things. Just like science. Blame the bad person for doing the bad thing -- don't blame the tool that they used.
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24-12-2014, 09:44 AM
RE: Reason, Or Ideology?
Quote:As any good NRA member will tell you, when someone commits murder (or any other crime) with a gun, it's not the gun that's bad, but the person.

But we don't just hand out free guns to kids and crazy people, do we? That is, we recognize that while guns are indeed just a tool, a neutral element in and of themselves, there are limits to the usefulness of guns.

Quote:Guns literally are simply tools. They do not do bad things. People can use them to do bad things. Just like science. Blame the bad person for doing the bad thing -- don't blame the tool that they used.

Ok, to continue with your analogy...

Yes, the gun itself is just an object, just as science is just a method. Agreed.

So if we can't blame the gun itself, can we blame the person who mass produces guns and introduces them in to trouble spots around the world and so on?

In the very same way....

If we can't blame science itself, can we blame the scientists who mass produce and distribute knowledge IF we can show that knowledge is likely to lead to suffering for human beings?

OR....

Or is science and scientists the new religion and the new priesthood who can not be challenged in any way, upon pain of excommunication!! :-)
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