Reasons for creation
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28-11-2011, 06:10 PM
RE: Reasons for creation
(28-11-2011 06:03 PM)seljusisk. Wrote:  
(28-11-2011 05:54 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  It's a matter of perspective. The product changes when it's viewed from different point of views. I'm just saying that you have to look at what I'm saying from a theistic perspective and not from an atheistic perspective because that's isn't fair. Just like it isn't fair for a Christian to apply Christian perspectives and thoughts to an atheist's life and perspectives.
i understand that you want atheist to look at things from a theist view point, but were you saying specificity that you want atheist to see god creating man for his sons purpose, from a theists view, or just see from a theist view in general?

The topic is tailor-made for a theist (Christian), so it is implied that Christians are to answer the question based on their theology. Since the very instance of creation is false in the eyes of an atheist, the only way that effective communication and resolutions can come to fruition is by the assumption that the atheist is taking on the beliefs of the Christian in order to gain perspective on their thought process.

If not, then the whole topic is a bait and switch and/or a troll topic, which I don't think was it's intention.

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28-11-2011, 06:31 PM
RE: Reasons for creation
i can understand the frustration, but there are humans with all kinds of beliefs(or lack thereof) that are always going to deal with opposition in a less than graceful manner. The question is, are you going to define all others based off of some bad experiences. There are probably many who do that to you, and that suck, im sorry others with similar beliefs to mine are frelling hazmots, but there’s not much we can do to change them. You have to understand too that, some of these people have to deal with this kind of opposition a lot. TTA is a place where people can go when there alone, when they’ve been arguing all day because the people around them have different views, when your so warn down you don’t have the patience to deal with it any more.
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28-11-2011, 06:38 PM
RE: Reasons for creation
(28-11-2011 05:44 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(28-11-2011 05:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-11-2011 05:02 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(28-11-2011 03:56 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(28-11-2011 12:12 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  To give the Son a purpose and an inheritance.

Well as the myth goes he failed on both counts.

The son was cruelly tortured to death and all he inherited was largely a depraved lunatic asylum.

/sigh

No offense, but this is part of the reason why Christians get so awry around anti-theists. I get it. I understand what you're saying, but it seems that there is a refusal to understand the opposite end, which isn't fair to a theist.

Yes, the Son inherited a "depraved lunatic asylum"; however, that is wholly necessary to His POINT and His INHERITANCE. God "created" sin. You can't get around that fact - if He's omnipotent, then He had to do this. This means humanity was created to be fallen and depraved. Why? So that the Son would have a purpose - to be sacrificed for the ones that were chosen by God before the foundation of the world.

Please understand my frustration... it's not meant to be preachy or testy, it's just that it seems there is little or no empathy for theist when it comes to an atheist. I know this is a two-way street because you've probably encountered the EXACT same thing from Christians - probably worse.

This is why atheists get so frustrated by theists. There is no point discussing theological details when we reject your basic premise. If there are no gods, there is no theology.

That's a very bigoted response.

If someone respects your beliefs, you should do the same. You don't have to agree with their views. But, if you want to have a discussion then you have to be educated on that belief and willing to accept the fact that others don't believe the same as you.

If you're close-minded and stalwart with the view of "believe what I believe or don't talk to me" then you're no better than the religious bigots you're condemning.

Which part is 'bigoted'? I disagree with the premise of your argument, so the subsequent details are irrelevant. I merely state that theological nit-picking is an entirely pointless endeavor for an atheist. You are welcome to describe your theology, but I see no purpose in discussing whether one detail or train of thought is more correct than another since there is no substance.

And what do you mean when you say you respect my beliefs? I respect your right to have whatever beliefs you choose to have, but I am under no compulsion to respect those beliefs.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-11-2011, 06:44 PM (This post was last modified: 28-11-2011 06:49 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Reasons for creation
(28-11-2011 06:31 PM)seljusisk. Wrote:  i can understand the frustration, but there are humans with all kinds of beliefs(or lack thereof) that are always going to deal with opposition in a less than graceful manner. The question is, are you going to define all others based off of some bad experiences. There are probably many who do that to you, and that suck, im sorry others with similar beliefs to mine are frelling hazmots, but there’s not much we can do to change them. You have to understand too that, some of these people have to deal with this kind of opposition a lot. TTA is a place where people can go when there alone, when they’ve been arguing all day because the people around them have different views, when your so warn down you don’t have the patience to deal with it any more.

Yeah, I'm empathic to this. And, I understand... I really do (as a former agnostic). Part of my frustration is the fact that Christians have probably berated atheists to the point of abhorring all Christians. People are people - simple as that... not Christian, not atheist, not agnostic, etc.
(28-11-2011 06:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-11-2011 05:44 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(28-11-2011 05:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-11-2011 05:02 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(28-11-2011 03:56 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Well as the myth goes he failed on both counts.

The son was cruelly tortured to death and all he inherited was largely a depraved lunatic asylum.

/sigh

No offense, but this is part of the reason why Christians get so awry around anti-theists. I get it. I understand what you're saying, but it seems that there is a refusal to understand the opposite end, which isn't fair to a theist.

Yes, the Son inherited a "depraved lunatic asylum"; however, that is wholly necessary to His POINT and His INHERITANCE. God "created" sin. You can't get around that fact - if He's omnipotent, then He had to do this. This means humanity was created to be fallen and depraved. Why? So that the Son would have a purpose - to be sacrificed for the ones that were chosen by God before the foundation of the world.

Please understand my frustration... it's not meant to be preachy or testy, it's just that it seems there is little or no empathy for theist when it comes to an atheist. I know this is a two-way street because you've probably encountered the EXACT same thing from Christians - probably worse.

This is why atheists get so frustrated by theists. There is no point discussing theological details when we reject your basic premise. If there are no gods, there is no theology.

That's a very bigoted response.

If someone respects your beliefs, you should do the same. You don't have to agree with their views. But, if you want to have a discussion then you have to be educated on that belief and willing to accept the fact that others don't believe the same as you.

If you're close-minded and stalwart with the view of "believe what I believe or don't talk to me" then you're no better than the religious bigots you're condemning.

Which part is 'bigoted'? I disagree with the premise of your argument, so the subsequent details are irrelevant. I merely state that theological nit-picking is an entirely pointless endeavor for an atheist. You are welcome to describe your theology, but I see no purpose in discussing whether one detail or train of thought is more correct than another since there is no substance.

And what do you mean when you say you respect my beliefs? I respect your right to have whatever beliefs you choose to have, but I am under no compulsion to respect those beliefs.

This is a theistic discussion, is it not? If you refuse to understand those beliefs, then you don't belong in the discussion.

And, I yield to what you said about beliefs. I suppose it's a matter of opinion. I choose to respect the person and the person's belief because my beliefs are special to me, and I would want someone else to feel the same.

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28-11-2011, 06:55 PM
RE: Reasons for creation
(28-11-2011 06:44 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Which part is 'bigoted'? I disagree with the premise of your argument, so the subsequent details are irrelevant. I merely state that theological nit-picking is an entirely pointless endeavor for an atheist. You are welcome to describe your theology, but I see no purpose in discussing whether one detail or train of thought is more correct than another since there is no substance.

And what do you mean when you say you respect my beliefs? I respect your right to have whatever beliefs you choose to have, but I am under no compulsion to respect those beliefs.

This is a theistic discussion, is it not? If you refuse to understand those beliefs, then you don't belong in the discussion.

And, I yield to what you said about beliefs. I suppose it's a matter of opinion. I choose to respect the person and the person's belief because my beliefs are special to me, and I would want someone else to feel the same.
[/quote]

No, this is not a theistic discussion - the question on the table is the purpose of creation. To an atheist, there is no 'creation' let alone a purpose.

I do not refuse to understand your (or anyone's) beliefs, I refuse to argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

You are welcome to respect beliefs with which you disagree, but I fail to see what that means. How do you respect that which you reject?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-11-2011, 06:56 PM
RE: Reasons for creation
One problem with this is the label being assumed. This is not a theistic debate, it is open. Meaning that it can be discussed from any perspective including philosophical. You do not have to understand the bible (a feat that is virtually impossible, which is shown by the very existence of every different christian sect) you just have to question why.

Anyways, continue on fine folks, and remember keep it civil. Jerks.

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28-11-2011, 07:38 PM (This post was last modified: 28-11-2011 07:47 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Reasons for creation
Ummm, this is TOO a theistic discussion, and it should be handled as such. The quoted below is FAR from anything that could be labeled atheistic. As such, this conversation should be handled as a theistic conversation. Don't pee on my foot and tell me it's raining.

(27-11-2011 01:24 PM)Kaos MD Wrote:  One concern I have for creationism is why did God bother making the universe and everything in it? If one is omnipotent, what is the point in creating something? The only response I have been given by christians is that he was bored or lonely. Can these feelings be attributed to an omnipotent God? It would seem to me that if one has already attained the highest position possible, that there would be nothing left to do and the being would cease to exist.


(28-11-2011 06:55 PM)Chas Wrote:  You are welcome to respect beliefs with which you disagree, but I fail to see what that means. How do you respect that which you reject?

It means that I can see the reasoning of your beliefs (even though I don't share it). I can respect the fact that it is a legitimate belief based on what your core beliefs are.

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28-11-2011, 08:06 PM
RE: Reasons for creation
No sorry you are wrong. Period. He never says he wants a christian to answer the question. That leaves it an open question. Also I never stated that it was an atheist question either. He says he has asked a christian. Feel free to answer it anyway you feel. Also don't get snarky. I wasn't snarky with you but I could be if you like. I could be more than snarky I could be mean. Leave this shit civil.

Just to point out, if all he wanted was a christian perspective a christian forum might have netted him a lot more of the kind of answer he was looking for don't you think?

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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28-11-2011, 08:15 PM
RE: Reasons for creation
(28-11-2011 08:06 PM)lucradis Wrote:  No sorry you are wrong. Period. He never says he wants a christian to answer the question. That leaves it an open question. Also I never stated that it was an atheist question either. He says he has asked a christian. Feel free to answer it anyway you feel. Also don't get snarky. I wasn't snarky with you but I could be if you like. I could be more than snarky I could be mean. Leave this shit civil.

Just to point out, if all he wanted was a christian perspective a christian forum might have netted him a lot more of the kind of answer he was looking for don't you think?

I am civil. I'm not getting snarky. Sorry you took it that way. Tone to text is always difficult to detect.

Anyway, he was arguing it from a atheistic viewpoint. Creation cannot be argued from an atheistic perspective. It is a purely theistic belief. An atheist can weigh in on the belief that there was no creation by a deity, but what's the point? Especially when it comes to answering the topic at hand.

Do you see what I'm trying to say. You're free to offer an atheistic view on a theistic belief, but what does that do to further the topic at hand?

How would this be any different than a YEC coming into a topic on evolution and saying that "that can't be" because it doesn't line up with creationism?

If I'm not being clear, please let me know.

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28-11-2011, 08:24 PM
RE: Reasons for creation
All I mean is that just because an atheist answers the question it doesn't mean that they didn't take the creation story as fact before doing so. I did. I also meant that philosophy is open ended, it can take all perspectives into account. I don't see how you would actually need to be a believer to view it as one. Unless as I have seen within this thread don't get me wrong, the person answering as an atheist is unwilling to play the hypothetical game.

I also get that a genuine creationist would offer an interesting angle, but I don't think that the angle offered couldn't be gathered from one of us already as a bunch of us have seen that side too.

The question is open ended for the reason alone that not even a creationist could even hope to answer the question. No one could, other than god itself. So it becomes open unless otherwise stated.

I apologize for being a bit over sensitive. Let's all just get along. Maybe snuggle party?

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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