Reasons to Believe in God???
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02-03-2012, 06:42 AM
Reasons to Believe in God???
Tim Keller at UPenn

I could use another brain. I am currently discussing many issues with my brother who is a pastor. If you are interested in killing an hour and would like to watch and share your thoughts on the points raised, I would be grateful. I have some thoughts about the lecture I may be posting tomorrow. Attack!!!
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02-03-2012, 08:37 AM
RE: Reasons to Believe in God???
Ok I watched the whole thing, I liked it until he got to the fine tuning argument, from that point he just went down and down, we've talked about the fine tuning of the universe so many times that I can't believe he just grabs it and compares it to a four aces in a hand of poker over and over, the universe doesn't work like that! he understood everything wrong and finished it with an ad populum argument (you would punch the guy in the face because he seems to be cheating although he was just lucky) I'll go deeper in this only if it's brought up again, it's just futile to argue fine tuning.

The he talks about the insignificance of love, and how saying love is important without a god is a leap of faith, well it's not, I think love is important because it causes people too enjoy life and be happy, I think love is important in the same way I believe the internet is important, not because it has a deeper purpose, it's because it makes us all live in harmony instead of just randomly fighting over stupid things, happiness is not the purpose of love, is its consequence.

Then he goes into human rights, oh boy! he doesn't know anything about law at all! it's true that human rights have their origins in a faith based system (iusnaturalism) that think rights actually exist and reason can understand them, but that is just a legal technicality to justify the existence of laws not to prove god. Some say human rights are based on natural human dignity, I answer bullshit! there's no natural human dignity, as there is no natural cows dignity or rocks dignity, we say there is because we have to justify to ourselves a mutual respect or else we would die, simple as that, and we've found that human rights are pretty much the most basic things we need to respect of each other to make a seemingly functioning society. He tries to refute this saying that in this case we could just erase them and nothing would happen, and that scenario is unthinkable.
Well, I think about it, and it's totally possible, think of any dictatorship and you'll see the frailty of law systems, human rights are not the exception.

The he paraphrases Pascal's wager, saying that is not the strength of the faith that saves you but the object of faith, well, I rather put my faith in science any time than in god, as science as proven to be stronger than religion, so I don't even need faith in order to "be saved" by it, I have knowledge it is stronger.

And finally he says that hamlet, in order to know anything about Shakespeare, would need the writer to write himself into the play, comparing it to god, he says god has "written" itself into the universe by this fine tuning and jebus, and the bible. I'm just going to say that Hamlet would have a much easier time when it comes to believing in Shakespeare, because god is a lousy novelist.

I'll grant this guy the fact that we can't prove god doesn't exists and that atheism is a leap of faith as it asserts god is not there. But doubt being a possibility is not a good case for either side of the story, is a tie. And if we search deeper and investigate the origins of religion I think it'll loose, as religion is basically failed science.

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02-03-2012, 06:31 PM
RE: Reasons to Believe in God???
I could not get it to play past 60 seconds, but the best may have been in that segment.

In their own words, they are having to present an argument for belief in god where they used to just assume everyone was on board.

We are winning. Thats the bottom line and they are pissed off.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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02-03-2012, 07:43 PM
RE: Reasons to Believe in God???
Atheism has shown that there is no legit reason to believe, but people don't want reasons. They want proof.

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Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
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02-03-2012, 07:45 PM
RE: Reasons to Believe in God???
The #1 reason to believe in god, and I think others will back me up on this, is that you have believed in god for as long as you can remember.
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02-03-2012, 08:11 PM
RE: Reasons to Believe in God???
First thing that starts it all out wrong in assuming there is a supreme being at all, especially with zero demonstrable evidence. Anything that he says is evidence is strictly hearsay. Of course since he is a minister he will be completely biased in his outcomes.

He mentions it takes as much faith to believe than to disbelieve. Then he goes on to say it take more of a leap of faith to disbelieve in God. Well now he's playing on fears.

He mentions that all arguments to disprove god fall flat, they fail. Because they fail, nonbelievers are taking a risk. This is again playing into the fear. He, of course, fails to mention that the same arguments for the existence of god fall flat and fail also.
He goes into a philosophical reasoning, I would like to point out that philosophy hasn't contributed to science or the betterment of man in many many years. It may bring comfort or confusion to some but it serves no physical value. He asks, "How do you know God doesn't have a good reason for suffering." I challenge you to find a good reason for suffering. There is a no real good reason for any suffering. This whole god has a plan is a cop out.

Ok now he's far off the deep end, he said "If god is so great and so big then he couldn't be in the Universe. This null and voids the whole "God is able to do anything, is all powerful and all knowing."

He's very good about only delivering the message one sided and one sided only. He's horribly misleading, completely biased and unable to put the shoe on the other foot. He buries himself in philosophy and zero evidence. It's unfortunate that the crowd will probably not apply any critical thinking to anything he says.

The poker game scenario, oh my, playing on people's illogical emotions to suit his punch line. This scenario is filled with more holes than the Theory of Evolution had when it was first thought of. He goes on to assume that nonbelievers have a problem with god. Completely forgetting the fact that in order to have a problem with "god" you first must believe such a thing exists.

He starts on nonbelievers only have natural selection, this plays on the pride factor. Nothing to do with logic, reason, evidence, strictly on the naive to believe they are special. This goes on into the love thing, the only reason you feel love is because your brain rewards you with chance. This again preys on the pride and naive mindset. This all falls under the useless questions "Why are we here?" "What's our purpose?"...and so on. To even ask these questions you have come to the conclusion that there is a reason and a purpose without evidence.

He again brings back the leap of faith (fear mongering). Strong eating the weak is misleading and he is completely misleading people, due to his lack of knowledge on the subject (going on what I'm hearing in the video from him). Nature doesn't care if you die as he goes on, attempting to further disprove nature/strong eating the weak. He neglects the whole part about how groups of a species have evolved to learn that working together for a common cause is much more productive to survival. This is all basing on the premise that just because humans can't imagine it's only a chance.

He overall bases his ideas on faulty logic. I give him, nice try but you fail, grade!

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02-03-2012, 08:44 PM
RE: Reasons to Believe in God???
(02-03-2012 06:42 AM)Devilock07 Wrote:  Tim Keller at UPenn

I could use another brain. I am currently discussing many issues with my brother who is a pastor. If you are interested in killing an hour and would like to watch and share your thoughts on the points raised, I would be grateful. I have some thoughts about the lecture I may be posting tomorrow. Attack!!!

Your problem is really a multi faceted whammy.

You could try introducing Christian concepts that your brother does not hold, there are heaps of those -no doubt.

Also the god concept is not patented to Christianity. You might care to take a look at Zarathustrianism, Hinduism, Judaism per se. Islam per se, Theosophy, Anthroposophy................even the old Greek,Roman, and Egyptian gods.

Oh yes, and dont forget Empedocles;he thought he was a god and threw himself into a volcanoe. Wink
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02-03-2012, 08:51 PM
RE: Reasons to Believe in God???
What it really comes down to is this is his profession.
If these kids leave the church he is out of a job.
We threaten his livelihood.
So he's spouting things that no reasonable person could believe.
The theist game now is to bash atheism and distort facts.
We are truly up against the same evil that would burn us at the stake in 1420.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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02-03-2012, 09:06 PM
RE: Reasons to Believe in God???
(02-03-2012 08:51 PM)Thomas Wrote:  What it really comes down to is this is his profession.
If these kids leave the church he is out of a job.
We threaten his livelihood.
So he's spouting things that no reasonable person could believe.
The theist game now is to bash atheism and distort facts.
We are truly up against the same evil that would burn us at the stake in 1420.
Your atheisic compassion is quite refreshing!Shy
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03-03-2012, 12:02 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2012 12:07 PM by Thomas.)
RE: Reasons to Believe in God???
(02-03-2012 07:45 PM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  The #1 reason to believe in god, and I think others will back me up on this, is that you have believed in god for as long as you can remember.

This has been shown true in surveys where the believers faith was above 95% of the time the parents belief (if I remember correctly off the top of my head).
(02-03-2012 09:06 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(02-03-2012 08:51 PM)Thomas Wrote:  What it really comes down to is this is his profession.
If these kids leave the church he is out of a job.
We threaten his livelihood.
So he's spouting things that no reasonable person could believe.
The theist game now is to bash atheism and distort facts.
We are truly up against the same evil that would burn us at the stake in 1420.
Your atheisic compassion is quite refreshing!Shy

Religion is a profession. If the money dries up most prostelizers will leave for another profession, like selling insurance or used cars.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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