Rebuttal to "The Moral Argument"
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12-07-2012, 10:28 PM
Rebuttal to "The Moral Argument"
Just a thought that hit me recently. When asked "where do morals come from if not from the bible?" you can point out some stories in Genesis (because scripture is more convincing than reason to a believer, I think).

In the story of Cain and Abel, Cain kills Abel... and knows he did wrong, which is why he denies it. In the story of Joseph in Egypt, Joseph is accused of rape, and Joseph's youngest brother is accused of theft.

Here we see three sins - murder, rape, and theft - all seen as wrong by those who commit them long before the existence of even the first book of the bible was available to them. Furthermore, the rape and theft were both clearly seen as wrong by the Egyptians, who were not only not Jewish (because the Jews only consisted of Joseph and his brothers at that point) but wouldn't have read and followed the bible even after it came out. All of these people understood these acts to be wrong without the guidance of a bible.

Even if you personally can't come up with a source for moral intuitions, assuming the bible is true, people can and did. And that will leave a fundamentalist Christian without a leg to stand on when debating The Moral Argument.

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12-07-2012, 11:46 PM
RE: Rebuttal to "The Moral Argument"
Good thought, dude. I'm kinda stunned that I hadn't thought about that before.

Would you not be offered the retort (from the metaphor-ists rather than the literal-ists) that these stories were written as examples of morality for future generations to learn from?

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13-07-2012, 02:29 AM (This post was last modified: 13-07-2012 04:10 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Rebuttal to "The Moral Argument"
The "moral argument" is that objective moral values exist, and that assertion proves the existence of god. The moral argument is not about the existence of the Bible, or that morality was "revealed", or arose in human history only after the 10 Commandments were given. The moral argument is that everyone, including those who have no access to scripture have intrinsic moral values.

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13-07-2012, 02:41 AM
RE: Rebuttal to "The Moral Argument"
Da fuck, Starcrash? Fictional characters are fiction. Try this kinda shit, and they're just gonna latch onto the fact that you're giving credence to scripture. These people don't talk to communicate, but rather to instigate.

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13-07-2012, 03:43 AM
RE: Rebuttal to "The Moral Argument"
Bible contradiction number 6,223,545,102,029,092

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13-07-2012, 09:15 AM
RE: Rebuttal to "The Moral Argument"
Hey, Starcrash.

Not that I agree with the Bible being the source of morality (Darwinism handily explains where morality comes from), but there's a flaw with your argument.

Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. So that's where the pre-Bible moral info comes from (according to doctrine anyway; I have no reason to believe it and prefer the Quinnian interpretation of the Story of the Fall anyway). My understanding is that the Bible is a post-fact codex. That is to say that everything in the Bible happened before the Bible; the Bible is just a codefication of it all. So when people say it comes from the Bible, it's like saying addition comes from a math textbook. People figured out addition before the book, but the book explains it in no uncertain terms.

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13-07-2012, 10:04 AM
RE: Rebuttal to "The Moral Argument"
I've found in conversations of that path, when you make actual strikes against their Morals question, often lead to the religious one saying God makes us moral innately... Which completely makes the question worthless but in their minds it means they win. Nothing is more of a mental masturbatory argument than God did it.

If you are going to say rape, murderer, and theft are wrong via the bible. You can nitpick a bit more than just those incidences happening before the nations knew morality. The stories that are supposed to be good actions and even ordered by God include these moral wrongs. It's written as a good thing that Lot's daughters rape him. A few pages after God gives his commandments, he orders the Israelites to murder and take the good/virgin daughters for their own.

Another strike is how the Egyptian and Canaanite people lived in their grand societies. They didn't have the divine law of God yet the stories don't show any actions of theirs being different from following those same basic rules. Besides, how could any huge society function if they didn't have rules to limit theft and murder.

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13-07-2012, 12:17 PM
RE: Rebuttal to "The Moral Argument"
Honestly, though... are there really Christians who say this?

I've never encountered one. I mean, the obvious debunker would be having just one atheist who does something that is considered moral. If that happens, then the whole morality issue is sent into a tailspin.

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13-07-2012, 12:25 PM
RE: Rebuttal to "The Moral Argument"
(13-07-2012 12:17 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Honestly, though... are there really Christians who say this?

Dude. It's like the multiverse. You cannot make up asinine bullshit that has not already been believed by a Christian. Big Grin

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13-07-2012, 12:29 PM
RE: Rebuttal to "The Moral Argument"
The problem with this argument is it can spin around for hours to no end. Examples can be given left and right for both sides and several spins on logic will take place. I don't see this is coming to an end. Just as we as atheists and agnostics ask that the Christians prove God since they are the ones making the positive claim, the shame should be done for morals coming from God.

They can not ask us to disprove god, just like they can not ask us to disprove that our morals are guided by anything but god.


Does god exist?

Yes. ---or--- No.

Do morals come from God?

Yes, he created us. ---or--- No, because God does not exist.





I don't see the loop ending. It's nice to spin the wheels every now and then though, see what our minds can conjour up to prove or debunk this argument. I wouldn't hope for much on it though. The pessimist inside me is a loud f***er.

And yet another interesting topic I am not interested in.
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