Rebuttal to "The Moral Argument"
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15-07-2012, 07:37 AM
RE: Rebuttal to "The Moral Argument"
(15-07-2012 12:14 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  An objective moral truth is a moral truth that is independent from a mind.
If there were no minds on earth, what moral truth would exist ?


You have to have a conscious creature to have morals.

Well, that certainly seems true. Morals are about how people treat each other, and thus require "people" and the ability to "treat each other" one way or another. So a universe without people is a universe without morals... just like a universe without physical things would be a universe without physics. This makes the atheist argument stronger, as morals could not exist before people.

Theists seem to think that "objective morality" can come from a god (since it isn't subject to a human, although still subject to one specific source) but that's equivocation of an ambiguous word -- objective. But since there are many gods claiming to have different theories of morality, that leads to several "objective moralities", which makes such a definition unhelpful at best. I think ethics is objective, at least in its general form -- any moral question can be run through the subjective filters of deontology, utilitarianism, or virtue ethics, but the use of these tools in general is not based on any single mind or single subject's desires.

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15-07-2012, 03:10 PM
RE: Rebuttal to "The Moral Argument"
Hey, Starcrash.

First point: I agree. Morals require people to exist. They are an emergent property of humans. The hiccup is, if God created man, then he created the emergent property too.

Second point: Objective isn't an ambiguous word. In fact, it describes that which is utterly unambiguous. The different morality claims by the Gods of different denominations don't constitute many objective realities. If objectivism is correct, if there is but a single objective moral truth, then those that are correct are objectively correct while those that are not the objective truth are necessarily wrong. I believe that ethics are culturally relative rather than objective but that's another discussion altogether.

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15-07-2012, 04:34 PM
RE: Rebuttal to "The Moral Argument"
As human beings we can use harmful and sometimes near deadly techniques to help people.
People often refer to an action as being moral or immoral, but often times I think it's the intent behind the action that can make it moral or immoral.

Cutting into a person with a sharp blade with the intent to cause harm to a person is immoral.
Cutting into a person with a sharp blade with the intent to do surgery to help a person is moral.

Letting someone remain in extremely cold conditions with the intent to cause harm is immoral.
Letting someone remain in extremely cold conditions for a short period of time can help to reduce brain trauma is moral.

So morality isn't about actions, but intent. It's much harder to judge intent at times. Sometimes all we have are the actions.
And even when the intent is good, the actions can still override the intent and make it something very hard to judge.

Sometimes we must do something that is wrong so that we can live. Self preservation is a very strong motivator.

Lastly, let's assume that a god created me. I am the one who has to decide what to do in a situation.
I make the conscious consideration for the consequences of my actions. I do that. A god doesn't make any decisions on my behalf.

Morality comes into play when we consider the consequences of our actions.
If a god exists, morality still applies to that god. A god is not the author of morality.

We teach our morality to our children as best we can. And we hope they will grow up to be as moral as we are.
If the bible is how a god wants you to behave, then it's no wonder why so many christians are immoral. Their source book is immoral.

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15-07-2012, 05:01 PM
RE: Rebuttal to "The Moral Argument"
(13-07-2012 02:29 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The "moral argument" is that objective moral values exist, and that assertion proves the existence of god. The moral argument is not about the existence of the Bible, or that morality was "revealed", or arose in human history only after the 10 Commandments were given. The moral argument is that everyone, including those who have no access to scripture have intrinsic moral values.
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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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