Rebuttal to aethist questions
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24-09-2012, 01:34 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
(24-09-2012 10:39 AM)Jknight316 Wrote:  I'm Gonna take this from the Home Page and explain every point of contradiction according to true biblical understanding, my words in blue, bible in red


Bible Contradictions

This page addresses issues, contradictions and false logic with three of the most popular bible stories (Creation, Noah’s Ark and the Nativity Story), followed by a list of other scriptural accounts that conflict with each other. Browse the points below and ask yourself if the bible is truly a perfect, accurate, divinely-inspired document for living.

THE BIBLICAL ACCOUNT OF CREATION

A Young Earth?

Nope according to the bible its old here is how:

Gen 1:1-2 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep."

The break between verse 1 and verse 2 is due to the three hebrew words for "the earth was without form and void." The words are Tohuw and bohuw
OT:1961

Hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare OT:1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):

tohuw (to'-hoo); from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain:

bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright ?1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

According to this account the earth is most likely millions of years old.
In Hebrew this verse indicates that, The heavens and earth was created, then it came to pass that the earth was without form and void, filled by darkness, it had gone to chaos. So then you might ask how this happened, I have the answer to that also

Isa 14:12-15
how you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! 13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.' 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.
NKJV

Luke 10:17-20
17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." 18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."
NIV

Luke 10:17-20
17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." 18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."

Rev 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
NIV

What we put together is this, when God made the heavens and earth, he had not made man yet, he made the angels, who existed in heaven, Lucifer was the star of the morning, he is called the highest angel in other references, but we see in Isaiah that he became prideful and decided he wanted to over come the most high, God, he turned what many scholars believe to be 1/3 of the angels with him and rebelled against God trying to over throw him, after losing the battle he was forcefully cast to the earth along with the "fallen" angels who rebelled with him. While on the earth Satan brought it to chaos and destruction, causing God to have to recreate it for the creation of Man, Satan watched as God made man out of dust, and thus was there in the garden.


Genesis 1:16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth.

The stars gave light to the earth immediately, although the closest star, Alpha Centauri, is 4.3 light years away. So the very first star light would have taken 4.3 years to reach earth. The light we see from the Andromeda Galaxy takes 2.2 million years to reach earth, which also debunks the argument that the earth is only 6,000-10,000 years old.

The first flaw of this statement is that it does not say they immediately lighted the earth, and if god could make stars he could make them light the earth instantly if he wanted, but fitting the explanation of letting the stars light reach the earth on its own time, I already explained the earth is older then 10,000 years in the first segment, most likely 60 million or something, the would have plenty of time to reach the earth before the recreation of the earth and man.
God created the stars before recreating the earth, when he recreated the earth, he says let there be light, that wasn’t the creation of the stars, it was dispersing the immense cloud formation and atmosphere that blacked out the light from the stars and sun, then it says he created a firmament in the heavens, the atmosphere, which was completely distorted by the destruction satan had caused, then god said let there be lights in the firmaments, in hebrew this word is translated luminescent in the arch of the sky, so at first god divided night by day on the first day by clearing the atmosphere, on the 4th day he cleared the atmosphere more so that even the stars could give illumination on the new earth, and then he said let them be for time and events.
The Order of Creation


Genesis 1:11-12 and 1:26-27 Trees came before Adam.
Genesis 2:4-9 Trees came after Adam.

Taken out of context, in 1:11-12 he created the trees around the earth, in 2:4-9 it says in the garden of Eden that god was making, a central point of nature arranged in a beautiful fashion as we do in our back yards, god raised the trees out of the ground, in other words, god planted a garden after making Adam.

Genesis 1:20-21 and 26-27 Birds were created before Adam.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:19 Birds were created after Adam.

The same thing, in 1:20 god created the birds, in 2:7 the writer tells that as adam, was those birds where made of dust, and that at the time of the garden god brought them to Adam to be named, there is a time separation there that his author of these questions ignores.


Genesis 1:24-27 Animals were created before Adam.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:19 Animals were created after Adam.

Same thing, 1:24 god created the animals, 2:19 the author of genesis explains the animal where created of dust like Adam, and that at the time of the garden of Eden, god brought them before Adam to be named, there is a clear separation in time in these events.

Genesis 1:26-27 Adam and Eve were created at the same time.
Genesis 2:7 and 2:21-22 Adam was created first, woman sometime later.

Context again, it says
Gen 1:26-27
Then God said,"Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Notice it says god referred to man as them at first, man and female form were pre planned, then it says "so god created man hi his own image, in the image of god created him." That’s creation one and it is singular, then a semi colon ends this statement to represent a break in time, another creation "male and female, (pause) he created them, the context is that secondly he created them male and female, also this empathizes god created female too but this does not imply at the same time, the fact that there are two statements, one singular and one plural shows that there were 2 different events, which the author of genesis then goes on to explain, Adam first then Eve out of Adam.

Now I shall explain something interesting about Genesis 6
We established in the scripture that the angels where cast down to heaven, and Satan also. Then in genesis when Satan, the serpent, deceived Adam and Eve, god said eve's seed, her descendant would bruise his head, this was a foreshadowing of Jesus, if you strike a snake in the head, it is fatal, it was prophesy that Jesus would be sent and by dying deal a death blow to Satan's kingdom by redeeming the people. It was also a prophesy that Jesus would come again and literally deal the death blow to Satan, by throwing him into the lake of fire called the pit. Satan only knew it meant the second coming, so what did satan do? He had all the angels he had taken with him in the rebellion take on human form and sleep with the women
Genesis 6:32 "Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. 3 And the LORD said,"My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." 4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown."
The purpose of this was, that the dna of those children were corrupted, they became giants, half human, half fallen angel, there dna was corrupted, if all of the human race became corrupted by this act, then Jesus could not be born a pure human, and thus could not redeem us, and couldn’t deal Satan a death blow as a human. He was trying to corrupt the entire human race to stop the messiah from coming here is more scriptural evidence of this point
2 Peter 2:4-5
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
Jude 6-7
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
This shows two things, first that the fallen angels left their abode, their habitat, the spirtual plane that they exist on, and took on flesh and had sex with women, they were thrown into hell for this, to stop the corrupting of the human race.

This also explains the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, it says they went after strange flesh, not men, fallen angels, once again corruption the human race with fallen angel dna, so this city became a corrupt place of half breed giants and god fried them

This is the same reason god told the Israelites to kill all the men women and children, because those people were descendants of the giants, there genes corrupted by evil, any children born to the Israelites of there women, would be damned cause they would be part fallen angel, unredeemable. Living with them would eventually lead to intermarriage, and this is the very thing that happened, the Israelites didn’t kill them all, and eventually intermarriage occurred.
This is the same reason for the flood, god didn’t flood the earth because man was just evil and sinful, but because Noah and his 7 family members, had become the only humans left with completely pure human DNA, so god wiped out all the corrupted humans with a flood, and started new with Noah.
The reason it kept happening is cause fallen angels that dwell in the atmosphere, are reserved for judgment till the day Jesus returns, god wont throw them into hell until that day, except when they chose to take on flesh and break in the natrual realm and corrupt humans, then they are imprisoned, but only the ones who do so, so more kept doing it after the flood, right up till most of them were imprisoned and there numbers dwindled to low to continue doing so.


Other Issues in the Garden
Genesis 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
Genesis 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.
Which raises the question, how can an omnipotent, omniscient God create something he’s not pleased with?

This is just a stupid statement…. God created man, sinless and was pleased with what he made, when man sinned and disobeyed him, god was not pleased, I don’t see what is hard to understand about that, or how that’s a contradiction, chapter 6 is after Adam sinned

Genesis 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
An omnipotent being required…rest?

This could mean many things, like he observed for a day how the earth worked without intervening, this really is not a contradiction, and plainly is a moot point. To further it I think it was leading by example, a demonstration that eventually became known as the Sabbath.

Genesis 2:16-17 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
God placed temptation in the direct path of his two naïve children and allowed them to be tempted by the serpent (Genesis 3: 1-7), resulting in a single mistake that would contaminate hundreds of billions with a sin nature worthy of eternal torture?

Without an ability to chose wrongly against god, then they wouldn't have had free will, before eating they had no knowledge of how to rebel against god, they were different from us in there understanding, so god gave them one piece of knowledge of possible evil, the fruit they couldn't eat, this showed them one way they could disobey. Other wise they wouldn't know how and wouldn't come up with one, even without the fruit though, Satan would eventually do something that caused them to sin.
The fruit established a choice of obedience or disobedience, there only clear every day choice that in relation to following God.
As for why god created Free will, why didn't he just make it so they couldn't sin? Because God made creation to demonstrate certain parts of his person that were not full demonstrated in his perfect self existence, his mercy, his grace, that he is a redeemer, his love for his creation, non of things were expressed until he created, and these things would be fake if there was no free will, in other words, god wanted to make creation he could love, and that chose to love him back, without free will they couldn't chose to love back, god wanted relationship with man kind, and if it was forced, then it wouldn't be valuable it would be cheap.


Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, ’You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?"
A talking snake. Enough said.

It's figurative, a symbol that Satan used when appearing to man, and many scriptures indicate he actually took on the form of a dragon, not a snake, which would also be called a serpent, the dragon was a fierce powerful animal of fire, that dominated the sky's, it says in revelations that Satan's kingdom was in the air, the he and the angels preside over the earth in the atmosphere, the dragon is quite the representation of satan.


NOAH’S ARK AND THE GREAT FLOOD
Genesis 7:6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth. And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood.
Eight Bronze-Age humans over 500-years-old built a watercraft the size of a football stadium with only felled trees and pitch?

AGING is simply the body moving closer to the state of death, through the decay of bodily systems, if they were living to the age of 900 at some cases, it was cause the body was decaying at an extremely slow rate. This is due to humanities still new bodies, sin hadn't fully cursed the body to die at 120, in other words, when god created Adam, before sin Adam would have lived forever, but after sin, the body began to slowly decay, because it had been removed from gods presence, and corrupted by sin, causing them slowly die, eventually god limited the age they would live by removing his presence and life from the body allowing death, or decay to occur within 100 years. So at 500 years of age, noah was really about 40 years by today's standard.

Genesis6:19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you.
Answers In Genesis posits that Noah gathered "kinds" of animals and not all "species," an estimated 16,000 pairs, which raises a few animal-related questions:

Not nearly that many, it was regional, and fish was not included, this doesn't not really tell us how many came on the boat, it could have been only a few hundred pairs. ALSO if you can fit 10,000 in a large business conference center, then you could fit like 16,000 in the ark considering the size of small rodents and birds.

• How, exactly, did eight extreme senior citizens load, manage and care for 32,000 animals?

I explained they aged slower, also design, it could easily have a whole in the bottom of each stall theat dropped into a lower compartment of the large boat.

• What about specialized diets (bamboo for the giant panda, meat for the carnivores, fresh vegetation for the herbivores)?


Gods power sustained the animals, also he probably miraculously extended the food they had on the ship, sort of like when Jesus fed 5,000.


• Who cleaned each stall and shoveled the tons of daily excrement through the huge ark’s single window?


There could have been a large hallow bottom in the bottom of the ark, each stall having a hole to dump into the bottom.


• How did they separate the predator and prey animals? Did the lion lay with the lamb?

If god can make the lions in the lions den, not attack David, then he can make a bunch of predators, be calm, this would be the only way they got predators on the boat. This is not a contradiction, simply a question of whether or not you believe god had the power to do so.

• How do you explain the acquisition and loading of animals not indigenous to the Middle East (many separated by oceans), like the polar bear, the sloth, the crocodile, the fruit bat, the anaconda, etc? And how did the penguins and other cold-climate creatures survive in the blistering desert heat?

If the earth was being rained on massively, the temperature would not be high, it would be like 50 degree's most likely, and this far back there was a land bridge between the Americas and Russia, there was a solid land route there, god would have had to guide all the animals to the ark.

• Wouldn’t freshwater rains from the sky have made the saltwater deadly to ocean marine life? And wouldn’t saltwater have proven equally toxic to all freshwater fish? If water boiled up from beneath the earth’s crust, wouldn’t water temperature changes in the delicate ecosystem have also had a deadly effect?

It says everything died from the flood, except what was on the boat, so most likely all the fresh water fish died, leaving salt water fish, and as for the water receding, if it was fresh water, that would explain how the huge water aquifers under the united stated and the rest of the continents were formed. ALSO who ever said salt water fish die from fresh water, there is still a presence of salt in the fresh water, and the already salty water on the earth would have created a mix of both together at first the water wouldn't mix, but eventually you would have a mix of it with some salt, allowing the fish to survive.

• Dinosaurs on the ark. Did they exit the boat and THEN get hit by a comet?

Whos said anything about dinosaurs….. that’s not in the bible lol

Genesis 7:19-20 {the waters} They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet.
This would require steady, planet-wide rainfall at the rate of 6 inches per minute, 360 inches an hour, for 40 days and 40 nights, covering Mount Everest under 22 feet of water. How, exactly, did Noah measure this for the record? Where has all of the water gone since? And why is there no legitimate geological evidence of a global flood?

First off, he measured then time, and they knew that it was covering the whole earth as god said it would, then it said a huge wind came and the water receded, I expect this was how the HUGE water aquifers all of the world under the worlds surface that provides almost all of Americas fresh water supply were created. This is a moot point, again if GOD is GOD then he could easily do this.
As for ecological evidence, that there was a massive extinction of 99% of the life on the earth in the rock and shale records. Scientist try to claim it was longer then 8,000 years ago, but you do not know for sure that they tell the truth of its dating, since they couldn't carbon date it. It's just their own estimate of its timing based on other evidences in the ice records of an increase in air in the ice in the artics, the thing is this connection has no logical foundation.


Genesis 8:8 Then he sent out a dove to see if the water had receded from the surface of the ground.Why did Noah require a dove to find land (Genesis 8) if he and God were on speaking terms in Genesis 6?

Because in a few more verses, when its time to exit the boat, god speaks to noah and tells him to get off the ark, at this point the water hadnt't receded, so god hadn't spoke because the water was still over most of the earth, but Noah was curious as to the condition outside. When it was time to get off the boat, a few more verses later then the dove god speaks and tells him to get off the boat

Genesis 8:15-16 Then God said to Noah, "Come out of the ark, you and your wife and your sons and their wives. Bring out every kind of living creature that is with you—the birds, the animals, and all the creatures that move along the ground—so they can multiply on the earth and be fruitful and increase in number on it."
When the ark landed, what did the carnivores eat? All other animal life had been drowned. And vegetation would’ve also been wiped out in the flood, so what did the herbivores eat to survive?


It says a few verses late God caused the grass to grow and the trees to rise up on the earth, there is also a train of thought that says many creatures were originally herbivores when god created them, but because sin entered the world after, slowly the species where turned to carnivores, corrupted from their natural state, some say that at this time all the animals were herbivores, or capable on surviving eating grass or vegetation.


Genesis 9:1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth.
8 people of middle-eastern descent practiced incest to produce over 5,000 of today’s ethnic groups in only a few hundred generations?

They reproduced quickly, as for variation, the variation we see today in skin tones and hair color, far surpasses that of any other mammal species, and has a 3.2% chance of happening with in the 10 million years scientist believe mankind has been here. It's much more possible that God created variations in births over time to develop new ethnicities

Genesis 9:20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent.
The only guy worth saving spent his latter days drunk and naked?

This is no contradiction, and as I Explained early, he was the only human left of pure human genome, so whether he drank or not, it was only because he chose not to let his genes be corrupted by giants, that he was chosen to be saved.

NOTE: Much of the biblical flood story was actually plagiarized from "The Epic of Gilgamesh," the mythical Sumerian account of Ut-Napishtim written on stone tablets around 2000 BC. In "The Epic of Gilgamesh, one righteous man was spared from a worldwide flood by building a large boat with a single door and one window. The ark contained a few other human beings plus plant and animal specimens. Rains covered the mountains with water. Birds were sent to find land. The boat landed on a mountain in the middle east. Ut-Napshtim sacrificed an animal as an offering, and the Babylonian gods expressed regret for flooding the earth. Sound familiar?

Since the large manuscript of the book of genesis was written by moses in 2200 b.c , it would seem the opposite truth is quite possible


I've been going at this for about 2 hours losing focus and need to get back to work, i will post a part 2 addressing the rest of the questions in the home page later this week
Welcome to the forum. First, thank you for posting something of substance, unlike a few others who have come here with nothing more than "Jesus loves you, you should believe" or some equivalent.

Honestly I had a hard time understanding the logic behind the whole first part about why the bible supposedly indicates the earth was old. However, I do understand, when you believe in an omnipotent being, the instant light from the distant stars would be possible.

You are the first person I have ever heard say that Satan was cast to the Earth before God created man and that God had to recreate the earth for man. However, that either means God destroyed the Earth completely and then recreated it (which doesn't sound like what you were saying) or he destroyed what was on the Earth and recreated that (which seems to contradict that it was created in 7 days).

Quote:Other Issues in the Garden
Genesis 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
Genesis 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.
Which raises the question, how can an omnipotent, omniscient God create something he’s not pleased with?

This is just a stupid statement…. God created man, sinless and was pleased with what he made, when man sinned and disobeyed him, god was not pleased, I don’t see what is hard to understand about that, or how that’s a contradiction, chapter 6 is after Adam sinned
This isn't much of a rebuttal. God created man with the ability to sin. Once they sinned he was displeased... with his own creation. So you haven't rebutted anything here.

Quote:• Who cleaned each stall and shoveled the tons of daily excrement through the huge ark’s single window?

There could have been a large hallow bottom in the bottom of the ark, each stall having a hole to dump into the bottom.
I'm pretty sure the increasing weight in the bottom of the boat would eventually sink the ship.

Quote:• Dinosaurs on the ark. Did they exit the boat and THEN get hit by a comet?

Whos said anything about dinosaurs….. that’s not in the bible lol
Exactly, it's not in the bible. In fact, no explanation for dinosaurs is in the bible. We read about the very beginnings of the Earth in the bible, but dinosaurs are never mentioned anywhere. Their existence, however, is fact. Why aren't they account for some place in the bible?

I don't have a lot of time to post right now so I only chose these few of things for now.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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24-09-2012, 01:49 PM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2012 02:00 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
(24-09-2012 01:34 PM)Impulse Wrote:  You are the first person I have ever heard say that Satan was cast to the Earth before God created man and that God had to recreate the earth for man.

Not sure where the "cast to Earth" stuff came from, (Mormonism maybe ??), but the creation of angels, is totally extra-biblical. It is what Roman Catholicism teaches about angels, and devils, and their (pre-Earth) "rebellion", (ie Satan/Lucifer).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09410a.htm
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=224683
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#II

We know where angels and devils came from, (see Elaine Pagel's, (Princeton) "The Origins of Satan". It wasn't the Bible.

1,000,000 known species of insects, many of them microscopic. How would he have even seen them ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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24-09-2012, 01:51 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
(24-09-2012 01:34 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
Quote:• Who cleaned each stall and shoveled the tons of daily excrement through the huge ark’s single window?

There could have been a large hallow bottom in the bottom of the ark, each stall having a hole to dump into the bottom.
I'm pretty sure the increasing weight in the bottom of the boat would eventually sink the ship.

But you see the bottom of the boat had a hole in it to let the shit out Smile Much like this argument.

OP, you've done a heroic amount of typing... welcome to the forum.
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24-09-2012, 02:06 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
Hmm good comment impulse, about half the people just made a notion of verbal diarrhea without reading what i said

for first, i will not comment on stupid statements like

"what a mass of incoherent illogical bliss"

obviously you didn't read it, and even if you did you have no bases for saying that

Second, some of you have posted COMPLETE lies, i will address those in a second, PPLEASE don't post a bunch of BS that you made up, cause then i have to do a lot of copy and pasty of real facts to show everyone you lie like a dirty rug. that's way more work for me

OK since pulse was the most respectable he gets the first responses

Impluse this should answer you more quickly if you want quotations just let me know

basically the true biblical time line to most well known preachers and teachers of charismatic circles goes like this

God created heaven, we don't know what even is like, space, the stars, and the earth

God made the Angels and Satan was the chief angel, his purpose was to sing the greatest worship to God, he was called the morning star because of his great beauty

Satan decided he could over throw God, the chief worshiper wanted to be worshiped

A large Battle took place in which Satan rebelled against God, with a portion of the angels, at this point the bible says SIN originated in him, he was the first to sin

They were all cast to the earth, many teachers believe that on the earth God had tested creation at this time, Hence the dinosaurs, and many say that there was a proto type to humans, cave men as you may say. In a scripture in the old testament there is verse that discribes this fall, it says the nations of his creation watched him fall, and that he corrupted them and brang destruction on the earth.

Satan falling could have been quite like the large comet that wiped out the dinosaurs causing major ice age, it depends if there was a massive impact, but eventually while he was here brought it from complete order with life forms on it, i suspect the dinosaurs, and wiped everything out that lived on it till there was nothing but darkness and water

This is what is know in theological groups as The Angelic AGE, god had created the angels and allowed them to pass through their time of free will, they were tested by Satan, and those that remained with god, were sanctified, permanently into his kingdom, much like the believing in Jesus brings eternal forgiveness.

After the earth had reached total Destruction and Satan had reached total havoc on it, god brooded over the waters and began to recreate it. this account was written by a man, most scholars say Moses was the writer, this is called plenary inspiration, god inspired him to write it. How this would happen is that at the time Moses would be seeing in a vision everything that happens, and wrote in their old language to best of his understanding, so when moses writes let there be light, he was not seeing the stars be created, otherwise he would have written, and god made light, he said god spoke let there be light, in direction of the earth, so this means what Moses was seeing is god made it so the light reached the earth. We know Satan caused the earth to reach a form of darkness and to become void, so god cleared the darkness which mostly likely massive atmosphere density similar to what would happen if a super volcano went off. You have to understand when you read it that Moses was describing what he saw, in an old language, with no scientific understanding of what an atmosphere was at night, so he wrote it the best way he could

as for Satan falling to earth, Jesus says he saw it in Matthew, john describes it in revelations, job touches on it the book of job, and Isaiah described it happening in the book of Isaiah, Isaiah and job would not have read each others writings, job is consider the oldest book in the bible, and was not part of the torah that Isaiah read, it was added in to the torah later when it was discovered.
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24-09-2012, 02:12 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
Quote:• Who cleaned each stall and shoveled the tons of daily excrement through the huge ark’s single window?

There could have been a large hallow bottom in the bottom of the ark, each stall having a hole to dump into the bottom.

I'm pretty sure the increasing weight in the bottom of the boat would eventually sink the ship.

Lets just make this a simple response, all the food that they ate, was already on the boat, so the outtake of the animals, would simply be a conversion of the food that was already on the boat, so all the animals poop would not increase the weight, it would simple make less food on the boat, and more poop, since excreting materials really doesn't create matter, its just changing the state, as for if all the weight of the food being turned into the poop and then being dumped into the bottom, I doubt the simple moving of the weight to a lower point in the boat would cause it to sink, since in galley ships all the slaves are stored in the bottom, and all the crap is dumped into a massive hollow bottom, quite like i suggested, the idea of the ark is certainly sustainable, ESPECIALLY when you have a super powered god behind it.
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24-09-2012, 02:19 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
Heeth back! Sthqueeeeeeeeee!!!

Yes indeed, when it's a magic boat, magic plumbing seems like an entirely feasible idea, which raises the question, why bother with magic boats? Why not magically kill all the evil men in horrible ways (as God does indeed love to do)? Not to mention he wiped out large numbers of sinful camels and the like.
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24-09-2012, 02:22 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
Next question: do you know how fucking ginormous our universe is? Why is the creator pissing about on a planet in the middle of nowhere making sure that illiterate ape descendants believe he exists?
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24-09-2012, 02:31 PM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2012 02:59 PM by Jknight316.)
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
(24-09-2012 01:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(24-09-2012 01:34 PM)Impulse Wrote:  You are the first person I have ever heard say that Satan was cast to the Earth before God created man and that God had to recreate the earth for man.

We know where angels and devils came from, (see Elaine Pagel's, (Princeton) "The Origins of Satan". It wasn't the Bible.

1,000,000 known species of insects, many of them microscopic. How would he have even seen them ?


you don't even know what your talking about, and that reference you used is completely wrong, the Book of JOB, is the oldest book in the bible, the original manuscript of it is not found, . Moses made a translation of it from old Aramaic to Hebrew in about 1400 B.C, The original writing is gone. most bible scholars assume about 2,000 B.C, the book of job was written is the first historical writing to actually mention Satan, and the book of Job not only talked about him, but described his role, his position and much information about him.

Get your facts straight, the actualy orginal scroll for the book of job is located in the national library and museum in Jerusalem, where it is preserved in a glass encasing.
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24-09-2012, 02:34 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
(24-09-2012 02:22 PM)morondog Wrote:  Next question: do you know how fucking ginormous our universe is? Why is the creator pissing about on a planet in the middle of nowhere making sure that illiterate ape descendants believe he exists?

your name is quite befitting, i will simply ignore your stupid comments, cause you can't speak to me without cursing on a intellectual topic, is the likes of people like you who degrade the atheist population.
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24-09-2012, 02:40 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
Figures. You got an answer for the question or you happy to carry on with the witticisms?

You don't like the word fuck do you ? Big Grin
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