Rebuttal to aethist questions
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24-09-2012, 02:40 PM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2012 03:25 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
(24-09-2012 02:31 PM)Jknight316 Wrote:  
(24-09-2012 01:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  We know where angels and devils came from, (see Elaine Pagel's, (Princeton) "The Origins of Satan". It wasn't the Bible.

1,000,000 known species of insects, many of them microscopic. How would he have even seen them ?


you don't even know what your talking about, and that reference you used is completely wrong, the Book of JOB, is the oldest book in the bible, the original manuscript of it is is almost completely degraded, there is enough readable text in old Aramaic Hebrew to verify the accuracy of the translation to newer Aramaic writings Moses made. Moses made a translation of it from old Aramaic to Hebrew in about 1400 B.C, The original writing was much older then the translated version, most scholars assume about 2,500 B.C, the book of job is the first historical writing to actually mention Satan, and the book of Job not only talked about him, but described his role, his position and much information about him.

Get your facts straight, the actualy orginal scroll for the book of job is located in the national library and museum in Jerusalem, where it is preserved in a glass encasing.

Sorry buddy. You got the wrong guy to tangle with here. The Judean Priests assembled Genesis in 550-575 BCE. The Moses myth was already in the myths. Moses wrote nothing. Do I need to prove that ? If so I can, easily. Job WAS written first. It proves NOTHING about Moses. "Most scholars" ???? PROVE IT ! Let's see your poll of scholars. And what University are YOU doing YOUR PhD in Biblical Studies at ?

Edit. The fact that Moses appears in Job, (which is known to have been written as a response to the national tragedy of the Exilic experience around 575 BCE), proves nothing except that the Judean priests, (or whoever wrote it), put the myth of Moses into Job also). The fact that the god's name in Job varies as much as ALL the extant source texts for Genesis, (J-1, J-2, E, P) proves that text also was a conflation of texts, (as anyone who ever read it can tell, as the ordering of the text makes no sense).
There was NO ONE author of anything. The Documentary, (multiple source) Hypothesis has not been questioned by anyone in at least 75 years.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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24-09-2012, 02:44 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
... you know every now and then someone gets to me, and today, it's you Smile I love how you guys are really well and truly upset when someone says Fuck Jesus Christ but hey, how about them Midianites and killing all the non-virgin women, that was sure fine wasn't it? God - mass murderer, I'll worship him, and tell people I don't know off for 'cursing', but I'll make damn sure I never say fuck...
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24-09-2012, 02:47 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
(24-09-2012 02:31 PM)Jknight316 Wrote:  
(24-09-2012 01:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  We know where angels and devils came from, (see Elaine Pagel's, (Princeton) "The Origins of Satan". It wasn't the Bible.

1,000,000 known species of insects, many of them microscopic. How would he have even seen them ?


you don't even know what your talking about, and that reference you used is completely wrong, the Book of JOB, is the oldest book in the bible, the original manuscript of it is is almost completely degraded, there is enough readable text in old Aramaic Hebrew to verify the accuracy of the translation to newer Aramaic writings Moses made. Moses made a translation of it from old Aramaic to Hebrew in about 1400 B.C, The original writing was much older then the translated version, most scholars assume about 2,500 B.C, the book of job is the first historical writing to actually mention Satan, and the book of Job not only talked about him, but described his role, his position and much information about him.

Get your facts straight, the actualy orginal scroll for the book of job is located in the national library and museum in Jerusalem, where it is preserved in a glass encasing.

Uh...you need to get YOUR facts straight. There is not one extant original document from ANY book in the bible. All we have are copies, the oldest of which are badly degraded like the copy you referred to. If there were any original texts in existence, this would be loudly broadcast, but it's not. It makes you sound ignorant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible

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24-09-2012, 03:13 PM (This post was last modified: 25-09-2012 10:30 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
So, How do we know Moses did not write the Pentateuch ?

Absolute dating cutoff for Old Testament :
a. Camels were not domesticated in the Ancient Near East until 1000 BCE. No images on pottery, no decoration, no building images, and no remains before that date.
b. The Phoenicians did not arrive in the Lavant until 1200 BCE, at the earliest, (proven by Archaeology).

So nothing recorded ...the comings and goings of Abraham, and Joseph to Egypt, if they occurred at all, could predate that, which calls into question the dating of everything.

1. Around 1100 CE, Isaac ibn Yashush noticed that the list of Edomite Kings in Genesis actually lived AFTER Moses, and later, others noticed they were in the wrong order. (It is speculated they were placed there as a reflection of the burst Sefirot, in Babylonian mythology.

http://www.helpmewithbiblestudy.org/5sys...omite.aspx

2. Then someone pointed out, Moses could not have known that there would be Hebrew King's, as he died before they were anointed, or even the decision was made to even have one.

3. Then someone noticed he talked about his own death and burial, and that the death and burial was written in the same literary style, and with the same vocabulary style, as the text that preceded it.

4. Then someone noticed many times the supposed "Mosaic" text says "and to this day", and "there never again arose in Israel such a prophet", and obviously, Moses would not have the perspective of history to write anything like that, ABOUT HIMSELF.

5. The text says "These are the words that Moses spoke to the children of Israel across the Jordan"..obviously it refers to someone who is on the OTHER side of the Jordan, and Moses was never supposedly ON the other side. Woops.

6. He called himself "the humblest man on Earth". I don't think THE humblest man on Earth would call himself that.

7. He names sites by geographical names which did not acquire their names, until AFTER he (supposedly) died. (The Edomite Kings, and their city origins).

Nope. Just as Jesus. He may have a kernel of historicity in there somewhere in Egyptian origins. He was NOT the historical person as portrayed.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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24-09-2012, 03:27 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
OK so i did makes some makes, correcting them, The book i read was about the Dead sea scrolls, i thought it said they were the original manuscripts, found. Well apparently the dead sea scrolls are only dated back to 200 BC, they are copies of copies, of original writings, so basically it comes down to this, do i trust that the priest accurately copied the original writing, yes because in Hebrew culture at the time, they could face serious consequences for changing the text, so since what we have today is an accurate translation of the what we found in the dead sea scrolls, i would say they are accurate, only thing that might have been messed up is things like, . , ;,


[quote/]
Sorry buddy. You got the wrong guy to tangle with here. The Judean Priests assembled Genesis in 550-575 BCE. The Moses myth was already in the myths. Moses wrote nothing. Do I need to prove that ? If so I can, easily. Job WAS written first. It proves NOTHING about Moses. "Most scholars" ???? PROVE IT ! Let's see your poll of scholars. And what University are YOU doing YOUR PhD in Biblical Studies at ?
[/quote]

where did you get that information, you have no solid that Moses was a myth, and since the oldest records of the torah is dead sea scrolls dated back to 200 B.C, you have no evidence that Judean priests wrote the book of genesis.
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24-09-2012, 03:32 PM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2012 03:44 PM by Logisch.)
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
If you're going to come onto an atheist forum to debate, you could try not getting offended by the fact that you're going to get rather blunt, perhaps even offensive (at least to you) responses. Many of us simply respond simply and to the point, some people take that as offensive. Fact is, we've heard this stuff a million times and it's nothing we haven't heard before.

I would suggest before thinking you've come up with a bunch of "new stuff" we haven't heard, looking through already existing debates:

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...th-Theists

And trust me... there's plenty.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...mmandments
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...o-big-bang
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...k-about-it
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...-DISTURBED
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...f-of-Jesus

What you have proposed, in your initial opening post, is a lot of strawman arguments. No one here asked those questions, you asked them and then answered them. When you were responded to, you took offense and started telling people they don't know what they are talking about, and then used references to copies of the bible as your "proof" - this is known as presuppositional argument, which is, in essence... the argument of "How am I right? Because bible." and if that is your entire argument in a nutshell, you're wasting your time. People who argue that their proof is the "infallible word of god" still need to provide evidence (other than the bible) that it is the "infallible word of god", and circular arguments, strawman arguments and repeated attempts at presupposition provide nothing worth bothering to argue about. If we're going to talk presupposition, we may as well be arguing about zeus or ea or mypsa as well.

Want to make for an interesting argument that is provocative and something you'll actually have a debate about? Introduce some science. If you end up using anything to "prove" something, then cite your sources and their peer reviewed resources and research as well that blows modern day anything out of the water, and you'll have an audience. Believe me, most of us have read the bible, many times. Looked for evidence... many times. We aren't atheists because we haven't read the bible, quite the opposite, most of us think it's a bunch of bullshit and are atheists because we've read it time and time again and see nothing in it worth while. Good mythology, just like any other mythology, but nothing that has/will/does convince us otherwise.

But if you are going to start with: "Strawman example, strawman answer. AHA! Because bible. You're wrong!" then you've already started your entire introduction here full of logical fallacies, dishonest arguing and started off on the wrong foot. You'll put up walls not just between you and us, but also in allowing anyone to listen to you. You could prove that there was even characters in the bible that existed, and that they existed historically, but it still has yet to prove something very crucial to the stance of atheism: It still does not prove the existence of a god.

I strongly urge you to look at how you have put your foot in the door here, perhaps rethink it, before it gets slammed on your foot.
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24-09-2012, 03:44 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
Logisch, once again a well delivered, understandable, rational response. You nailed it.

Jknight, if you plan to debate on this forum, you'll have to accept that the people here are not going to write what you want them too. There are no rules against swearing, being offensive, or pretty much saying anything with the exception of threats. You see, here, we have the freedom to say what we choose without moderation. Kinda like the real world....but not.

It can be a tough place for a theist like yourself, but there are a few that survive, and even flourish. Take your time getting used to things. They'll often be confrontational, insulting, and down right Agressive. But hey, if you can't handle that, then you're just not cut out for Internet debate.

...also, I recommend giving the rules a read before reporting any more posts, k?

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24-09-2012, 03:45 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
(24-09-2012 03:27 PM)Jknight316 Wrote:  OK so i did makes some makes, correcting them, The book i read was about the Dead sea scrolls, i thought it said they were the original manuscripts, found. Well apparently the dead sea scrolls are only dated back to 200 BC, they are copies of copies, of original writings, so basically it comes down to this, do i trust that the priest accurately copied the original writing, yes because in Hebrew culture at the time, they could face serious consequences for changing the text, so since what we have today is an accurate translation of the what we found in the dead sea scrolls, i would say they are accurate, only thing that might have been messed up is things like, . , ;,

Quote:Sorry buddy. You got the wrong guy to tangle with here. The Judean Priests assembled Genesis in 550-575 BCE. The Moses myth was already in the myths. Moses wrote nothing. Do I need to prove that ? If so I can, easily. Job WAS written first. It proves NOTHING about Moses. "Most scholars" ???? PROVE IT ! Let's see your poll of scholars. And what University are YOU doing YOUR PhD in Biblical Studies at ?

Quote:where did you get that information, you have no solid that Moses was a myth, and since the oldest records of the torah is dead sea scrolls dated back to 200 B.C, you have no evidence that Judean priests wrote the book of genesis.

I'm sorry. You obviously have NO education in the Bible. I'm not going to waste my time here. Your education is your job. Where did I get that. Um...my Harvard professors ? Does that count ? You need to read about the dating and historical evidence for what there is, and how they know it is true. There are historical methods, (which you need to learn about ...,how historians work, how they infer what they know, and what textual and form criticism is all about), that are used to infer when a text was written, by whom, and why. We know that Genesis was written to support and affirm the political position of the Judean priests, because they were Yahwists, and gave primacy of importance to Abraham, (and his YAHWEH LOCATIONS), in the texts they wrote. The fact that you never heard about this stuff is a measure of your need for a LOT more information.

As I said before, read Dr. Richard Elliot Friedman's books in my first post. read Dr Shawna Dolansky's books. Read The Interpreter's Bible, (original 13 volumes), and it's update. Bultmann, Buber...jesus, the list is endless.

The Dead Sea Scrolls began to be written around 400 BCE, and that was only 150 years after the Genesis texts were assembled from at least 4 known sources. NO SCHOLAR disputes that. Learn about the Documentary Hypothesis. Do you know what that means ? The sordid story of the priest, (geographical locations), factions, fighting over their stuff, is WAY to long to explain here.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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24-09-2012, 03:49 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
....BTW, fuck with Bucky and he'll eat you alive. Dude knows his shit, so come prepared, lest ye be smitten.

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24-09-2012, 04:00 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
(24-09-2012 03:13 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So, How do we know Moses did not write the Pentateuch ?

1. Around 1100 CE, Isaac ibn Yashush noticed that the list of Edomite Kings in Genesis actually lived AFTER Moses, and later, others noticed they were in the wrong order. (It is speculated they were placed there as a reflection of the burst Sefirot, in Babylonian mythology.

http://www.helpmewithbiblestudy.org/5sys...omite.aspx

2. Then someone pointed out, Moses could not have known that there would be Hebrew King's, as he died before they were anointed, or even the decision was made to even have one.

3. Then someone noticed he talked about his own death and burial, and that the death and burial was written in the same literary style, and with the same vocabulary style, as the text that preceded it.

4. Then someone noticed many times the supposed "Mosaic" text says "and to this day", and "there never again arose in Israel such a prophet", and obviously, Moses would not have the perspective of history to write anything like that, ABOUT HIMSELF.

5. The text says "These are the words that Moses spoke to the children of Israel across the Jordan"..obviously it refers to someone who is on the OTHER side of the Jordan, and Moses was never supposedly ON the other side. Woops.

6. He called himself "the humblest man on Earth". I don't think THE humblest man on Earth would call himself that.

7. He names sites by geographical names which did not acquire their names, until AFTER he (supposedly) died. (The Edomite Kings, and their city origins).

Nope. Just as Jesus. He may have a kernel of historicity in there somewhere in Egyptian origins. He was NOT the historical person as portrayed.


what historical record do you have to prove the edomite kings lived after Moses, is there even any historical proof as to when they lived?

the only contextual proof is that the first king bela Son of Beor, who reigned over Edom in the city of Dinhabah, eight generations before Saul, king of Israel, or about the time of the Exodus.

the statement is that how did moses know about the seven kings that came after him, well how do you know that the succession of the kings of Edom, did not take place in short periods of kings over throwing each other, or dieing in battle, there is no historical proof to say how long the reigned

In Fact if you read the verse about the edomite kings, NON of them were coming from a line of succession, each of them had a different father, a different lineage line, sounds much more like a fast rapid succession of different kings and people who took power of edom in Moses life time.

and as for Moses knowing about the future Israelite kings, Mose knew god had promised he would raise kings up in the promise land when they reached it.

let me and copy and paste your misquote of the bible

Deut 1:1-2
These are the words which Moses spoke to all Israel on this side of the Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain opposite Suph, between Paran, Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth, and Dizahab. 2 It is eleven days' journey from Horeb by way of Mount Seir to Kadesh Barnea.
NKJV

he never crossed the Jordan, and it doesn't say he did

the word humblest does not occur in any part of the bible, i checked all the references saying humble with a search, non of them are moses saying he was the most humble, so either you completely made that up, or you quoted a completely wrong source who made it up

i suspect copy and paste is your culprit
i see no fallacy as to his authorship,
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