Rebuttal to aethist questions
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24-09-2012, 04:51 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
(24-09-2012 04:18 PM)Jknight316 Wrote:  
(24-09-2012 03:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I'm sorry. You obviously have NO education in the Bible. I'm not going to waste my time here. Your education is your job. Where did I get that. Um...my Harvard professors ? Does that count ? You need to read about the dating and historical evidence for what there is, and how they know it is true. There are historical methods, (which you need to learn about ...,how historians work, how they infer what they know, and what textual and form criticism is all about), that are used to infer when a text was written, by whom, and why. We know that Genesis was written to support and affirm the political position of the Judean priests, because they were Yahwists, and gave primacy of importance to Abraham, (and his YAHWEH LOCATIONS), in the texts they wrote. The fact that you never heard about this stuff is a measure of your need for a LOT more information.

As I said before, read Dr. Richard Elliot Friedman's books in my first post. read Dr Shawna Dolansky's books. Read The Interpreter's Bible, (original 13 volumes), and it's update. Bultmann, Buber...jesus, the list is endless.

The Dead Sea Scrolls began to be written around 400 BCE, and that was only 150 years after the Genesis texts were assembled from at least 4 known sources. NO SCHOLAR disputes that. Learn about the Documentary Hypothesis. Do you know what that means ? The sordid story of the priest, (geographical locations), factions, fighting over their stuff, is WAY to long to explain here.

firs you said i have no edication in the bible, this a gross hyperbole, because if you read even a verse then have 1 verses education, so in your claim, i never opened the book

prove you go to Harvard, cause you lied several times in your previous posts as i pointed out you said Moses claimed to be the humblest man, i searched the entire bible in my PC study bible search engine no such verse exists, if you would lie about one thing you lie about anything to prove me wrong.

to extend that you don't go to Harvard, you live in California as your profile states, until you provide proof of your attendance there, you have no credibility in anything you say

what you are trying to act like you know about, is what i think is that some circles claim that because in some old manuscripts it reads Elohim created the earth, which is translate "GOD" in singular form, while others read Yahweh, which is god first name meaning Jehovah, or "god is salvation"

according to the bible, the name Jehovah was given to Moses, the use of Elohim, is used to refer the Trinity god the father god the sun, and god the holy spirit, in tri unity, GOD, while Jehovah is the personal name of the Father, these may have been a simple misunderstanding of copying the original texts by priests as to whether Moses was referring to God as Elohim or Jehovah.

this in no way even provides a logical basis to the idea that Judean priests wrote the book of genesis

to further my argument, the malicious intent of you statements, saying im ignorant and certain lies you provided, saying the bible has a verse where Moses claims to be the most humblest man on the earth, which it doesn't not contain any such verse remotely close to that, the word humblest doesnt even occur in the NKJV or NIV, means that you willing twist information for your own purpose.
You need to work on your logical thinking and debating skills. This one post already contains both the strawman fallacy, the ad hominem fallacy, the red herring fallacy, as well as several arguments from ignorance.

Here, please educate yourself.

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24-09-2012, 04:53 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
I disagree with your explanation. Your argument requires that an all-knowing, omnisicent being with an astoundingly important message for the entire world, chose to reveal this message through a book that requires the reader to have the following things:

1. An understanding of the original languages (Aramaic and Greek) used and either original copies or a guide to what troublesome words are derived from which Aramaic or Greek words
2. An understanding of the context of the pre-civilized middle east, early Jewish culture, Greek culture, Roman culture, and the early Christian church(es) to be applied selectively in just the right way so as to drive the correct interpretation
3. A willingness to take the divinity of the book on faith before even cracking the book for the first time


I'm sorry, your explanations don't suffice. It's simply absurd and looking at it with any objectivity, ESPECIALLY in light of the actual language, history, and context in which these things were written, will reveal to you that the Torah alone had five authors and was written an edited as much for political reasons as for spiritual ones, such as the "finding" of Deuteronomy, the "lost book of Moses", found by the high priest of King Josiah, which just so happened to enact policies that centered power in Jerusalem, King Josiah's city, and enforced his specific favored policies.

Study the Bible without the Bible Study, and you'll find that the Bible is not in any way a divinely inspired book, or any sort of font of truth and knowledge. Give it a shot.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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24-09-2012, 05:27 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
(24-09-2012 04:53 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  I disagree with your explanation. Your argument requires that an all-knowing, omnisicent being with an astoundingly important message for the entire world, chose to reveal this message through a book that requires the reader to have the following things:

1. An understanding of the original languages (Aramaic and Greek) used and either original copies or a guide to what troublesome words are derived from which Aramaic or Greek words
2. An understanding of the context of the pre-civilized middle east, early Jewish culture, Greek culture, Roman culture, and the early Christian church(es) to be applied selectively in just the right way so as to drive the correct interpretation
3. A willingness to take the divinity of the book on faith before even cracking the book for the first time


I'm sorry, your explanations don't suffice. It's simply absurd and looking at it with any objectivity, ESPECIALLY in light of the actual language, history, and context in which these things were written, will reveal to you that the Torah alone had five authors and was written an edited as much for political reasons as for spiritual ones, such as the "finding" of Deuteronomy, the "lost book of Moses", found by the high priest of King Josiah, which just so happened to enact policies that centered power in Jerusalem, King Josiah's city, and enforced his specific favored policies.

Study the Bible without the Bible Study, and you'll find that the Bible is not in any way a divinely inspired book, or any sort of font of truth and knowledge. Give it a shot.

ha lol

ok well first off the bible has 40 different authors over a time span of 2000 years, and yet you have no valid contradiction to point out, everyone you point out, i disprove, if you have one, ill disprove it. a Book being written by 40 different authors, over 2000 years, and having no contradictions, which you cannot prove it has any valid contradictions, is a quite a feet that you would like to ignore, you simple state that it has contradictions, bring up a valid one

my point was that i cannot prove to you God exist, it would contradictory to the bibles system of faith to do so

i came here to lead you all down the a path, which you all followed, where i could present a basic level truth that you can't truly deny

I cant prove god exist, you can prove he doesn't
You can't prove any of your claims of contradiction are true, and i can explain all of them, that i have yet seen

this leaves us at impasse

my final point is this

intelligence can decide both ways, it is the heart of a man that makes the decision, as I said before you pride in your self is offended by the gospel message and the bible, there for you have chosen to find every single possible logical arguement and mental reason, and every possible lie about the bible you can to defend yourself in believing that its not true

i ripped apart all the contradictions stated, all the mis facts presented, you have no claims against the bible except that it requires belief in a super powerful god that i have no proof exist

so what defense do you have left other then, if i can't prove you don't have to believe it that i bear the proof of burden

on on that i present one more statement

truth is truth, there is not mutlti realities, god cannot both fully exist and at the same time fully not exist, so either, the god of the bible doesnt exist, maybe some other god does, or no god exist, OR he does exist and he is the god of the bible

you have a 50/50% chance on that premise of being right, either he does or he doesn't its fifty with type of reality

if i am wrong, i will simply sleep in the ground forever, if i am right i enjoy eternal bliss in heaven

if you are wrong you will expirence torture that never ends, you will live forever, in complete torture, if you are right you will sleep in the ground

you take a much higher risk then i do, i air on the safe side, while you take a gamble at a 50//50% chance that you might burn in hell forever

that is a stupid chance to take
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24-09-2012, 05:28 PM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2012 05:32 PM by Phaedrus.)
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
Pascal's Wager. Too bad, that's a free space on the Bingo board. Got any better ones? I want to win the $22.47 pot.
Note: It's also an argument I refuted at age 11 with the simple observation that there are thousands of proposed deities, most of which are mutually exclusive, and if you worship the wrong one you're screwed. So your odds go from 50% to about 0.01%. It's a sucker's bet.


Tell me, how did Judas die?

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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24-09-2012, 05:38 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
Matthew 27:3-8 and Acts 1:16-19

By hanging (Matthew 27:3-8) - "Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." But they said, "What is that to us? See to that yourself!" 5And he threw the pieces of silver into the sanctuary and departed; and he went away and hanged himself. 6And the chief priests took the pieces of silver and said, "It is not lawful to put them into the temple treasury, since it is the price of blood." 7And they counseled together and with the money bought the Potter’s Field as a burial place for strangers. 8For this reason that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day."
By falling (Acts 1:16-19) - "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17"For he was counted among us, and received his portion in this ministry." 18(Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)"

There is no contradiction here at all because both are true. A contradiction occurs when one statement excludes the possibility of another. The Second Law of Logic, the Law of Non Contradition, (LNC) says that something cannot be both true and false at the same time and in the same sense. It is not a contradiction to describe something differently: Judas was hung and Judas fell down. Both are possible since neither negates the possibility of the other. A contradiction occurs when one statement makes another statement impossible but both are said to be true. So, what happened here is that Judas went and hung himself and then his body later fell down and split open. In other words, the rope or branch of the tree probably broke due to the weight and his body fell down and his bowels spilled out.
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24-09-2012, 05:44 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
Yup, knew you were going to say that. But that's not what the book says. The book says in Matthew that he went and hung himself. The other says that he fell headlong and his bowels gushed out (implication being he was struck down by god). These are two different stories. Why would Acts bother going into the details of what happened after Judas' body fell from the tree? It's morbid and serves no purpose. If the writer of Acts meant the Judas hung himself, then his body fell and burst open, he would have written it that way. He didn't. He wrote it as Judas falling dead and bursting open, with no hanging involved.

The meaning of both sentences is plain. It's like reading:

"Bob shot himself in the head."
"Bot was pushed off the balcony by his angry wife and died when he hit the ground."

And then claiming that the actual story is that Bob was pushed off the balcony by his wife, then shot himself on the way down. It's not an actual interpretation of what is said, it's a scrambling attempt to reconcile two blatantly contradictory statements. I'm not going to change your mind, but it is, in fact, a contradiction.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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24-09-2012, 05:46 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
Atheists do not take the bible as evidence for anything.

Derp.

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24-09-2012, 05:51 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
he-he lol, i explain it this way, it says previously that when Jesus handed him the bread in the last supper, that SATAN himself entered him, and that Judas went brought the high chiefs to Jesus, after Judas threw the money back to the chiefs and ran out to the field of blood and hung himself, think about that would someone who just betrayed Jesus, be so ridden over it that he hung himself, maybe, but we know one thing Satan entered him, and that he was being harassed by high level powerful demons, when he hung himself, which could be described as falling head long, he died, and at dieing, Satan who is called the king of flies, devoured his insides with maggots, when Satan left him at his death, his insides were devoured by thousands or maggots and burst open, thus it was called the field of blood, because the man who betrayed Jesus leading the men who would spill Jesus blood to Jesus, ran into a field hung himself, and his own blood was devoured by maggots, those maggots would spread through out the field making a field of blood.
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24-09-2012, 05:52 PM
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
in this way it is not a contradiction according to the two laws i stated early, try another one, because in the movie passion of the crhist, this is exactly what they show at the end when judas dies, they show him hang himself, then his body is devoured by flies and maggots, that manifested when satan went out of him at his death, and we know in the bible satan is called the lord of flies
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24-09-2012, 05:53 PM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2012 06:48 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Rebuttal to aethist questions
Numbers 12:3 Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.

I am not going to prove anything. The fact that you have not even heard of the Documentary Hypothesis, while I have provided a number of correct academic resources, and proofs, and you have been incorrect, in at least 1/2 of the crap you posted, leads me to believe that your education is sorely lacking.

The fact is the Elohim were discovered, in the Royal Library of Ashurbanipal archaeological discovery in mid Nineteenth Century, as the Council of Gods. Yahweh was on of their 70 sons. "Some circles" is bullshit. Everyone knows that's where Yahweh and the Elohim concept came from. The "trinity" was, (despite being claimed by Christians), TOTALLY UNKNOWN to these people. Obviously you have ONLY a FUNDAMENTALIST exposure to the Bible, and know NO real church history. That's unfortunate. As my other thread shows, fundies know nothing about what is really discussed in mainline classrooms. The "trinity" was developed as a concept, not fully until Augustine got a hold of it, and Aquinas tried to explain it. The Council of Nicaea, and many others FOUGHT like cats and dogs about what it was, and what it meant. It did not exist in the OLD Testament, no matter what you have been told. It would have been considered idolatry, and we KNOW that the concept of Yahweh and his consort Ashura, did NOT involve that concept, EVER, at ANY time.

The name Javeh, was not "given" to Moses. In the myths from the Southern traditions, the Edomite mountain god, Javeh, and the Egyptian volcano god were conflated, and stuck together with Yahweh, and declared by Judean priests to be the same. Javeh and Yahweh were not the same, and had developed separately.

The fact that you have never heard of the Documentary Hypothesis, (and the writing by Judean priests), only betrays your total ignorange. I will waste no more time on you. You obviously have ONLY fundie knowledge. Go to school. Get an education. If you do not believe me, go, right now, to Barnes and Noble, and get Dr. Friedman's books. He agrees with absolutely every thing I have said. Or go to your library and start reading the 125 fundamentalist department, Baptists, chairmen, scholars, teachers, seminary deans, and famous archaeologists, who write The Interpreters Bible. Everything I have said is right there.

Here's the beginning of the list of contributors to The Interpreters Bible : (from my thread..which you obviously have not read)
"In 1952, a team was set in place by the world-famous, preeminent scholar, archaeologist and pioneer discoverer of Holy Land historical sites and documents, Dr. William Foxwell Albright, the professor of Semitic languages at the Johns Hopkins University. Their job was to write criticisms and scholarly work concerning all biblical texts. The team was composed of the most respected biblical scholars in the US and Europe, including Dr. John W. Bailey, Professor Emeritus, New Testament, Berkley Baptist Divinity School, Dr Albert E. Barnett, Professor Candler School of Theology, Emory University, Dr. Walter Russell Bowel, Professor, The Protestant Episcopal Seminary, Virginia, Dr. John Bright, Professor, Union Seminary and many others.

I KNEW you were a fundie. I swear I knew it the moment I first read that. I had this strange feeling : "he's got to be up to something". Oh well. That explains everything. Have a deluded life. fool. Of course you have never heard about any of this. THEY do not want you to know any of it. If you did know the truth it would be a HUGE threat to them .

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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