Recommend A Noah's Ark Thread?
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31-10-2012, 07:55 PM (This post was last modified: 31-10-2012 08:02 PM by Logisch.)
RE: Recommend A Noah's Ark Thread?
(31-10-2012 04:29 PM)onedream Wrote:  
(31-10-2012 03:58 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...Noah-s-ark

Which was found by, you know, searching. Big Grin

Thanks.

I searched. But nothing came up.

There's a lot more issues than the animals on the ark. For one... many species require specific diets. For instance, there are some animals that require specific humidity in their environment or they will die. There are others that survive best at certain temperatures.

The other issue is that there is not enough water on earth to have a universal flood. For someone to come up with the entire "Well god could just do whatever he wants." is not evidence. The other argument some apologists make is that it was a "local flood" (usually from those that realize a global flood wasn't possible and give up on it). The issue I have with that is that the bible says THE WORLD was flooded. If god was to be specific, and not be a lying bastard, or those who wrote the book to be not lying bastards, they should specify that it was a local flood. Also... if it was a local flood, this opens up the validity of OTHER stories in the bible.

If god didn't wipe out EVERYONE on the planet was an asshole, just the "local residents" this means:

- The "repopulation numbers" that people argue would be invalid. Ever heard creationists say the local flood was "local" but then claim that the numbers "add up" if you count the population of people after the flood vs birth numbers? If it was local, how could EVERYONE be dead on the planet?
- It would also mean all the animals weren't saved, since they seemed to think only animals in local area were applicable
- It also means if it was a local flood and that area was "the world" that likely the rest of the world had no idea about said religion. How could "every man know" about "god" if this was all taking place in a local area, if these men who wrote these things thought the "entire world" resided in, and applied to a local area.

This is why I think the apologist "local area flood" is a lot of bullshit.

So this means it makes more sense to argue about the way the bible put it, a world flood. And there is so fucking much wrong with it.

Again.. some key points:

- Plant life would be wiped out. That is an enormous amount of a problem. So when they got off the ark, what the fuck did the animals do for food? If "god just made them again" then why the hell would you need to put the animals on an ark, why not just "make those too"?
- Specific diets for animals. So unless apologists seem to think that the evolution of all the worlds species happened within the last 6000 years, I'd love to know how they explain the millions of species of animals. As I said before, some creatures require VERY SPECIFIC diets and VERY SPECIFIC environments. How the hell would they reproduce those things with the primitive nature of the ark? They sure as shit weren't scientists back then, and I have a hard time believing they knew the specific diets, specific humidity and environment of said animals and reproduced them on the ark. Did they use a sauna on the ark for some of the animals?
- Not enough water on the planet for it. Where the fuck would the water go when it was over? Again, the copout of "god can do anything" is not a good explanation.
- What about sealife? A lot of it would be wiped out as well. With the amounts of rain that would have to occur, this would also heat things up to a degree. Specific plants would expire, so would specific forms of sealife. The washing about and currents and areas of water moving together would also ruin many habitats for these creatures. This would be a massive extinction for them. Most argue that the mixture of salt and fresh water would be "enough" but even if we assume some species would survive that, the water heating up and destruction of environments on top of that would only multiply. Ever put a fish in a fishbowl, and had it die because it was too hot? Or too cold? Imagine doing that to the majority of the waters on the planet... because some climates and areas of water in the ocean maintain temperatures based on currents, and if all the waters on the planet FLOODED like that, temperatures would change drastically, in hot, or cold. Thus affecting a HUGE amount of those species.

The other issue... primarily, is that flood myths are nothing new, and the Christian flood myth is pretty much the same take off of other flood myths.

Examples:

Epic of gilgamesh
The flood of Matsya
Haava, the wound

If you read these stories, you will find that the biblical "story" is no more less laughable than any other historical flood myth of the same idea. Apologists should go read the other historical flood myths and study the similarities, as well as the ridiculous holes in them that people did not understand before we understood what we do now about geology, weather, environments, animals and species, evolution, the food chain, so on and so forth.
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31-10-2012, 07:59 PM
RE: Recommend A Noah's Ark Thread?
(31-10-2012 07:52 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(31-10-2012 07:12 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  What about the millions upon millions of microscopic animals, fungi, and bugs Noah could not see, or could not have even known about, or flying insects that live for only a day or so, and are dependent on very specific environments, and temperatures, and would have died instantly on the arc ?

What about... your mom. Tongue

See what a bad influence that Erxy is?

It's not considered a bad influence if its true. Bucky's mom really was on the ark.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of Calvinism is that good Atheists do nothing." ~Eric Oh My
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31-10-2012, 08:01 PM
RE: Recommend A Noah's Ark Thread?
I've heard a defense of the ark that more or less claimed god, or Noah, or the FSM put all the animals to sleep in order to reduce the amount of food required and prevent predation/stress. So, basically, even if we could come to a consensus on the logistics of the ark, like the size, necessary supplies, time, etc. the "a wizard did it" argument will eventually show up.

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31-10-2012, 08:04 PM
RE: Recommend A Noah's Ark Thread?
(31-10-2012 08:01 PM)thirdangletheory Wrote:  I've heard a defense of the ark that more or less claimed god, or Noah, or the FSM put all the animals to sleep in order to reduce the amount of food required and prevent predation/stress. So, basically, even if we could come to a consensus on the logistics of the ark, like the size, necessary supplies, time, etc. the "a wizard did it" argument will eventually show up.

Goal posts thattaway ----------------------------->
<------------------------- or maybe over there

Sounds like O'Reiley and god would get along well.

YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN THAT.
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31-10-2012, 08:12 PM
RE: Recommend A Noah's Ark Thread?
(31-10-2012 07:55 PM)Logisch Wrote:  Epic of gilgamesh
The flood of Matsya
Haava, the wound

If you read these stories, you will find that the biblical "story" is no more less laughable than any other historical flood myth of the same idea. Apologists should go read the other historical flood myths and study the similarities, as well as the ridiculous holes in them that people did not understand before we understood what we do now about geology, weather, environments, animals and species, evolution, the food chain, so on and so forth.

I've always thought the fact that there are multiple flood myths, from different cultures and times extremely interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth#Hypotheses
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31-10-2012, 08:18 PM
RE: Recommend A Noah's Ark Thread?
They're usually pretty similar. But always tailored in a fashion to their doctrine, even if "similar"...

- Something happens, usually mankind pisses someone off
- Their god or gods get pissed, upset, for whatever reason, applicable to said doctrine
- God or gods, or someone sends a flood to kill someone
- Someone either comes to save the day, or pwns god, conspires against god, or god saves those who are "just", depending on doctrine

In the story of Matsya, he sends a flood, vishnu tells a guy to round up things to save mankind and creates a boat to save "us"...

Gilgamesh is probably my favorite though, because it's polytheistic, and they sure put a lot of effort into that story.
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01-11-2012, 05:10 AM
RE: Recommend A Noah's Ark Thread?
(31-10-2012 08:01 PM)thirdangletheory Wrote:  I've heard a defense of the ark that more or less claimed god, or Noah, or the FSM put all the animals to sleep in order to reduce the amount of food required and prevent predation/stress. So, basically, even if we could come to a consensus on the logistics of the ark, like the size, necessary supplies, time, etc. the "a wizard did it" argument will eventually show up.

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<------------------------- or maybe over there

That's cute. Thanks for bringing that up. I hadn't heard that one. I have heard plenty of "a wizard did it" arguments, though.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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01-11-2012, 01:44 PM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2012 01:58 PM by onedream.)
RE: Recommend A Noah's Ark Thread?
And something I thought of yesterday (sadly for the first time) was "How could God kill all of those innocent children, babies, & mentally ill?"

My very own Christian doctrine states that children and mentally ill are "innocent" in God's eyes. So if God truly was merciful and he never changes, then why wouldn't the ark have been filled with a bunch of babies and retards?

Not to mention the postulation that all of the people groups of the world came from 8 people on a boat.

Great posts, guys. Talking myself out of Kindergarten theology is an arduous process. But I thank you for your help.

Y'all are great.
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01-11-2012, 03:38 PM
RE: Recommend A Noah's Ark Thread?
(01-11-2012 01:44 PM)onedream Wrote:  And something I thought of yesterday (sadly for the first time) was "How could God kill all of those innocent children, babies, & mentally ill?"

My very own Christian doctrine states that children and mentally ill are "innocent" in God's eyes. So if God truly was merciful and he never changes, then why wouldn't the ark have been filled with a bunch of babies and retards?

Not to mention the postulation that all of the people groups of the world came from 8 people on a boat.

Great posts, guys. Talking myself out of Kindergarten theology is an arduous process. But I thank you for your help.

Y'all are great.

There are two explanations for the destruction of man, and neither of them strike me as very appealing. The first is that God was committing genocide by wiping out all of the people with angel DNA (which has to do with that whole "sons of god came to the daughters of men" and "Noah was perfect in his generations" business), but of course every victim would have been innocent in that scenario -- it would have been their parents' fault for sleeping with angels, not theirs. The second explanation is the one you touched on: God killed "wicked" people, which of course would include babies and children born just before the flood. And the animals that weren't on the ark were screwed in any case, unjustly in my humble opinion.

I know it's hard to step away from religion. I was a Christian, too, and it took me about 2 years from the point that I spotted my first bible errors to the point where I was certain that I was no longer a believer. I can only hope you have it easier.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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01-11-2012, 04:02 PM
RE: Recommend A Noah's Ark Thread?
(01-11-2012 01:44 PM)onedream Wrote:  And something I thought of yesterday (sadly for the first time) was "How could God kill all of those innocent children, babies, & mentally ill?"

Then this will really bake your noodle:

God is omniscient. He knows everything. EVERYthing. And he exists outside of space and time, which means he has ALWAYS known EVERYthing.

So even before he said "Let there be light" he knew humans would be wicked and he would flood the world and save Noah and some critters. He knew it before the universe existed and yet he still made it this way.

If ever there was proof that God isn't what the Christians claim, this is the proof.

An omniscient god wouldn't make that kind of mistake - right from the beginning he would have just made all humans the way Noah's family was after the flood, therefore no wickedness, no flood. Just do it right the first time.

If he really is omniscient and made that mistake, then he's definitely not omnipotent. Knowing he was making humans so flawed that he would have to drown all life on earth to fix it, and still doing it, means he was unable to do it right - any god not sufficiently omnipotent to make humans right the first time is definitely not omnipotent enough to create a universe - that's gotta be way harder, don't you think?

So he can't be both omniscient and omnipotent, or else mankind would have been perfect from the start (or at least perfect enough that no flood would be needed).

I mean, think about how messed up people are today. Wickedness everywhere. More serial killers than at any time in history (heck, if Jack the Ripper existed today he wouldn't even make front page news - he was only newsworthy because nobody had heard of such wickedness back then). More death, more genocide, more evil dictators, more child molesters, more everything wicked. And god isn't killing us all today.

So just how wicked were we all before the flood to justify global extermination?

And omnipotent, omniscient god could see that coming, could do it differently, but didn't bother to?

None of it makes any sense.

No, the only rational explanation is that someone thought it was a good story so they wrote it down without thinking about the implications, without rationalizing it through to the logical conclusions.

And that's it. Just a story.

Just like all the rest of the Holy Book of Christian Myths.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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