Reconciling old and new testaments
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11-03-2015, 02:43 PM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2015 02:47 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(11-03-2015 12:35 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 04:28 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "There are several million (estimated) Messianic Jews."

I agree that some Jews today are still waiting their Messiah.

"Many of them do not believe Jesus is God, but they believe He is Messiah."

No. none of them believe Jesus was God. Jews by definition are monotheists. They believe in the one and only God, Yahweh. If any of them believe Jesus was God they are by definition not Jewish.

"but they believe He is Messiah."

NO. For the Jews the kingdom of God promised in scripture never was in a hypothetical heaven, but was to be on earth in the here and now. The real Jewish messiah wasn’t some savior of souls, but was to be a leader of the Jews who was to herald in a glorious age in which Israel triumphed and pagans recognized the glory of Israel’s god, Yahweh. The Jewish messiah was to build the temple, (Ezek. 37:26–28) gather all Jews back to Israel, (Isa. 43:5–6) and, importantly, bring an end to Roman rule. The Jewish messiah was supposed to end all exploitation, corruption, famine, disease, and war. Paul’s fictional Christ had done none of this!

You have not provided the details of a single Jew who thinks your Jeebus was their messiah. Get real.

Mark,

1. No, I haven't provided details of a single Jew who trusts Jesus. I merely mentioned that there are millions of active Messianic Jews, and in Messianic and Gentile congregations. I'm sure you've heard of Jews for Jesus? 100% of their staff and volunteers are Jews for one example, in case you'd like to review specific Jewish commentators and apologists for Jesus online.

2. Yes, I'm well aware that academia rejects the Bible as God's Word--secular academia and not seminaries, anyway. Yes. In typical secular universities, they also promote diversity to the point of marginalizing all evangelicals, and promote "free love" and abortion and...? Your point, please?

3. I'm already aware, as I've already mentioned, that Judaism broke away from the plural majesty echad view of God toward a yachid singular view--particularly, by the way, in the context of Maimonides articles of Jewish faith, in large part as a response to the Spanish inquisition. However, both heaven and a plural, triune God are in the Hebrew scriptures. And while a Jewish person who has not trusted yet in Y'shua affirms the monotheist nature of God today, and would say a Messianic Jew is an apostate Jew, they are still a Jew, entitled to a Jewish burial, etc. No Jewish man becomes uncircumcised when He trusts Jesus! And Jesus claimed to be the Jewish Messiah. However much you or another Jewish scholar wants to skirt the issue, there is a Messiah in Judaism and Jews who trust Christ... are trusting Messiah (of course, as you know, Christ = Messiah). Please don't try any sophistry to say that even the word Messiah is of anything but Hebrew derivation.

I hope if we continue to debate the issues we can do so calmly and logically. Thank you.

Re..."No, I haven't provided details of a single Jew who trusts Jesus. merely mentioned that there are millions of active Messianic Jews, and in Messianic and Gentile congregations."

I think you are trying to say (you have worded this poorly) that if you are one of the "millions" of "active messianic Jews" then you are a "Jew who trusts Jesus." If this is in fact your intent I have no idea how you have joined these dots. Please explain.

What on earth do you mean by "active"?

How do you make a connection between "messianic Jews" and Jesus?

Are you saying that for the Jews there is only one possible Messiah, and that it was Jesus? Has it occurred to you that there are Jews still awaiting their Messiah?

What, on earth, is your definition of a "messianic congregation?"

Re "However, both heaven and a plural, triune God are in the Hebrew scriptures."

Yeah right. It's plastered all over the old Testament isn't it! Yahweh carries on and on about how there's really three of him. He also talks incessantly about heaven, doesn't he! Heaven this Heaven that! Jews are always dreaming about some eternal theme park in the sky because of what's written in Scripture. Facepalm

Time to school you...

Heaven and Hell
One of the key concepts of Christianity is that God will reward the righteous with heaven and punish heathens with hell. Some Christians may be surprised to hear that heaven and hell are hardly alluded to in the Old Testament. When the word “heaven” is used, it’s only a place in the sky and the great space beyond, not a paradise for compliant people who perish; and hell doesn’t even rate a mention. If “Yahweh” had planned to recompense or punish people after they pass on, he would surely have said so in some of the several thousand conversations he had with the ancient Jews.

The Old Testament does teach that there’s life after death, specifically that every single soul goes to a graveyard called Sheol.
(http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articl...63-sheol). The wicked are there (Ps. 9:17, 31:17, 49:14, Isa. 5:14,) and so are the righteous (Gen. 37:35; Job 14:13; Ps. 6:5, 16:10, 88:3; Isa. 38:10.) It’s not somewhere a soul is sent if it’s behaved badly.

Sheol is sometimes incorrectly translated as “hell” in the Old Testament. Yet Sheol is a proper noun, so is a name or title. It shouldn’t be translated but simply transliterated, as is done with other names. The literal meaning is simply “subterranean retreat.” Anything more is conjecture and speculation.

The ancient Jews didn’t invent the idea of an afterlife. That notion had been around for thousands of years before Jews first wrote scripture, most notably in Egypt, China and the Americas, and the idea of heaven as a place where the righteous go after death to live forever with God was a key concept in Mithraism.

A Jewish version of heaven was only first hinted at perhaps a couple of hundred years before Jesus. What inspired Jewish prophets to (probably) borrow the Mithraic concept? Many young Jewish men were dying in the Maccabean revolt. Priests found this easier to justify if there was some reward for losing one’s life. The author of the book of Daniel, (the last book of the Old Testament to be written) writing in the second century BCE, wrote the words he hoped would inspire his people to oppose the pagans. Martyrs, he promised, would be rewarded for their faith in a remarkable way:
“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever” (Dan. 12:2–3, KJV.) This verse didn’t specifically mention the existence of heaven, but was probably responsible for the idea.

This was a very novel concept for Jews; nothing like this had ever been taught before. But the idea had been born, and was popular in some Jewish circles. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20...ven.html).

After the Babylonian exile Jews believed only in one god ...Yahweh.... Well that is what they were told to believe by their priests. Not 1 1/2, not two, not three gods. One. Monotheism is a central tenet of their faith.

You evangelical Christian types will go to any length to twist and lie about Scripture to fit your own manufactured agenda. That's weak and intellectually dishonest.

If I'm wrong about any of the above I'll be very happy to be corrected by Bucky Ball, our resident Old Testament scholar. He knows more about the old Testament than me and infinitely more about the old Testament than you.
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11-03-2015, 03:22 PM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2015 03:33 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(11-03-2015 12:26 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 06:24 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  As you have withdrawn your statement that "the baby really hasn't paid any price at all to go to Heaven" I'll restore your rep to neutral, but I urge you to think more seriously about a moral philosophy that says that infanticide is just fine and dandy so long as it is god ordering the killings. That's not a healthy view of morality. Nor is it a healthy view of morality to have acceptance of Christianity your sole determiner of whether a person should be eternally compensated or eternally tortured.

I'd ask you to extend that logically to all mankind, since all of us shall die. Is God murdering people when they die, as all die? Is every death therefore a murder? Or is it different, that each person is eternal in nature?

I was encouraged to have read this in my "quiet time" today:

"Whoever lives by believing in me will never die," -- from John's gospel

I too had a quiet moment to drink a cup of coffee and read a Superman comic this morning. Drinking Beverage

Superman said

"Dreams save us. Dreams lift us up and transform us and on my soul I dream of a world where dignity honour and justice becomes the reality we all share. I'll never stop fighting. Ever."

Ain't it great that Superman is batting for us? Good on ya Superman! You're my hero!Heart

Hang on. For a minute then I forgot that Superman is just a character in a cartoon. Sad And the comic cost more than the cup of coffee!Angry
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11-03-2015, 03:39 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(11-03-2015 12:35 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 04:28 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "There are several million (estimated) Messianic Jews."

I agree that some Jews today are still waiting their Messiah.

"Many of them do not believe Jesus is God, but they believe He is Messiah."

No. none of them believe Jesus was God. Jews by definition are monotheists. They believe in the one and only God, Yahweh. If any of them believe Jesus was God they are by definition not Jewish.

"but they believe He is Messiah."

NO. For the Jews the kingdom of God promised in scripture never was in a hypothetical heaven, but was to be on earth in the here and now. The real Jewish messiah wasn’t some savior of souls, but was to be a leader of the Jews who was to herald in a glorious age in which Israel triumphed and pagans recognized the glory of Israel’s god, Yahweh. The Jewish messiah was to build the temple, (Ezek. 37:26–28) gather all Jews back to Israel, (Isa. 43:5–6) and, importantly, bring an end to Roman rule. The Jewish messiah was supposed to end all exploitation, corruption, famine, disease, and war. Paul’s fictional Christ had done none of this!

You have not provided the details of a single Jew who thinks your Jeebus was their messiah. Get real.

Mark,

1. No, I haven't provided details of a single Jew who trusts Jesus. I merely mentioned that there are millions of active Messianic Jews, and in Messianic and Gentile congregations. I'm sure you've heard of Jews for Jesus? 100% of their staff and volunteers are Jews for one example, in case you'd like to review specific Jewish commentators and apologists for Jesus online.

2. Yes, I'm well aware that academia rejects the Bible as God's Word--secular academia and not seminaries, anyway. Yes. In typical secular universities, they also promote diversity to the point of marginalizing all evangelicals, and promote "free love" and abortion and...? Your point, please?

3. I'm already aware, as I've already mentioned, that Judaism broke away from the plural majesty echad view of God toward a yachid singular view--particularly, by the way, in the context of Maimonides articles of Jewish faith, in large part as a response to the Spanish inquisition. However, both heaven and a plural, triune God are in the Hebrew scriptures. And while a Jewish person who has not trusted yet in Y'shua affirms the monotheist nature of God today, and would say a Messianic Jew is an apostate Jew, they are still a Jew, entitled to a Jewish burial, etc. No Jewish man becomes uncircumcised when He trusts Jesus! And Jesus claimed to be the Jewish Messiah. However much you or another Jewish scholar wants to skirt the issue, there is a Messiah in Judaism and Jews who trust Christ... are trusting Messiah (of course, as you know, Christ = Messiah). Please don't try any sophistry to say that even the word Messiah is of anything but Hebrew derivation.

I hope if we continue to debate the issues we can do so calmly and logically. Thank you.

Re..."I hope if we continue to debate the issues we can do so calmly and logically. Thank you."

I make Mr Spock (RIP) look stressed. Thank you.
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11-03-2015, 10:12 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
A large issue I have with reconciling the old and new testaments is the fact that much of the OT is allegory. Jesus is a part if the Holy Trinity, and the early Church determined that Jesus was fully God and fully Man. Being the second person within the Trinity, he was God - a being who neither deceives or can be deceived. With this in mind, here are my 2 problem areas. There are 2 OT topics that stick out to me that Jesus references: Creation - Adam/Eve story and The Exodus. Science and archaeology demonstrates that the earth did not start as a garden paradise with a tree with forbidden fruit and the nation of Israel was not enslaved in Egypt. But Jesus references both. So did he intentionally deceive the people by affirming what the scrolls stated instead of correcting the errors, or did he not know that these stories were in error?
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11-03-2015, 10:34 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(11-03-2015 10:12 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  A large issue I have with reconciling the old and new testaments is the fact that much of the OT is allegory. Jesus is a part if the Holy Trinity, and the early Church determined that Jesus was fully God and fully Man. Being the second person within the Trinity, he was God - a being who neither deceives or can be deceived. With this in mind, here are my 2 problem areas. There are 2 OT topics that stick out to me that Jesus references: Creation - Adam/Eve story and The Exodus. Science and archaeology demonstrates that the earth did not start as a garden paradise with a tree with forbidden fruit and the nation of Israel was not enslaved in Egypt. But Jesus references both. So did he intentionally deceive the people by affirming what the scrolls stated instead of correcting the errors, or did he not know that these stories were in error?

Jesus *is said* to have referenced both. Since he never existed, it's a non-issue. ANd despite what the early church might have said they believed about him, there not only is no evidence he was what they said he was, but there is a lot of evidence later humans misinterpreted what the early Christians said and thought about him.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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12-03-2015, 06:37 AM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(11-03-2015 10:34 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(11-03-2015 10:12 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  A large issue I have with reconciling the old and new testaments is the fact that much of the OT is allegory. Jesus is a part if the Holy Trinity, and the early Church determined that Jesus was fully God and fully Man. Being the second person within the Trinity, he was God - a being who neither deceives or can be deceived. With this in mind, here are my 2 problem areas. There are 2 OT topics that stick out to me that Jesus references: Creation - Adam/Eve story and The Exodus. Science and archaeology demonstrates that the earth did not start as a garden paradise with a tree with forbidden fruit and the nation of Israel was not enslaved in Egypt. But Jesus references both. So did he intentionally deceive the people by affirming what the scrolls stated instead of correcting the errors, or did he not know that these stories were in error?

Jesus *is said* to have referenced both. Since he never existed, it's a non-issue. ANd despite what the early church might have said they believed about him, there not only is no evidence he was what they said he was, but there is a lot of evidence later humans misinterpreted what the early Christians said and thought about him.

Point taken, we don't know if that is what he truly said. Someone misrepresented events - whether it was the gospel writers or the people within the stories themselves.
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12-03-2015, 10:31 AM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
Hello,

I apologize if I caused you stress, Mark. We'd both do well to remember that as Kierkegaard once said, “A direct approach only strengthens a person in his illusions and at the same time embitters him. There is nothing that requires such gentle handling as an illusion if one wishes to dispel it.” That is, while one of us is right and the other not right re: certain issues, we all have illusions we are working to dispel. And I know we are both trying to dispel them wisely and kindly. I'm encouraged that you care about my beliefs and want to take a lot of time to try and teach me.

There are numerous Messianic Jewish congregations internationally that meet on Friday night, have a rabbi, and ark and Torah, teach through the week's passage from Tanach and then the Rabbi talks about the Tanach's fulfillments in Jesus. Yes, there are Jews not waiting for Messiah, Jews waiting for Messiah still, and Jews who believe and teach that Messiah has come, Jesus. Here is more about Messianic Judaism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

I'm familiar with distinctions between sheol, paradise, heaven, hell and the lake of fire. I'm familiar with the concept that the dictionary definition of a Jew is as a monotheist. However, I've seen the afterlife, judgment and a triune God in the Tanach and Talmud. Have you spoken with professors or rabbis (or people who are both) about the evolving nature of Judaism through the centuries? It's hard for me to argue with Jewish people who insist the Chosen People have always been monotheist, since when I point out the triunity of God in the scriptures and Talmud, it all depends on whether they hold to these documents as authoritative. Also, most Jews as well as most atheists and Christians don't fully comprehend the implications of Moses Maimonides articles of Jewish faith, which date more than 1,000 years after the time of Christ.

I hope this helps clarify my position and understanding. I'm sure there are other points you'd like me to reply to and be accountable to, but I thought I'd better start with these since your remarks indicate you don't understand that I understand. Thanks.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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