Reconciling old and new testaments
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03-03-2015, 02:38 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(01-03-2015 07:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A seeming paradox.
In the OT, God seems like us. In the NT, when God becomes one of US, we recognize that we are so unlike him. The OT God, was a God in which we often attributed our humanness too. The NT God is so entirely and uniquely human, that he reveals how humanless we are, reveals our inhumanity, in his profound humanity.

I'm sorry I clearly did not understand your point. Can you please elaborate on this? How come it looks like there are 2 gods. But still it's the same god? And how come you can pick and chose what to believe in the bible and what not? Like original sin, some accept that doctrine it, some don't.
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03-03-2015, 02:41 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(02-03-2015 04:43 PM)Luckyluciano Wrote:  Mr Q.....how about you pick a cherry from your evil book of sorcery an "be respectful" by not hijacking threads with your biased belief system. Read the thread title and stay on topic please.

I was doing so.

Quote:Can someone please explain it to me? How can you pick and chose what you like and just ignore the unpleasant stuff? It's in the book you consider sacred.

I cannot be responsible if you simply don't care for my on-thread answer.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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03-03-2015, 02:44 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(03-03-2015 02:38 PM)Happy Wrote:  
(01-03-2015 07:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A seeming paradox.
In the OT, God seems like us. In the NT, when God becomes one of US, we recognize that we are so unlike him. The OT God, was a God in which we often attributed our humanness too. The NT God is so entirely and uniquely human, that he reveals how humanless we are, reveals our inhumanity, in his profound humanity.

I'm sorry I clearly did not understand your point. Can you please elaborate on this? How come it looks like there are 2 gods. But still it's the same god? And how come you can pick and chose what to believe in the bible and what not? Like original sin, some accept that doctrine it, some don't.

Both the NT and OT pictures of God include zeal and anger, mercy and kindness. All the feelings and emotions humans have, magnified, if tempered with exceptional (godlike) knowledge and patience.

The doctrine of original sin was put forth by St. Augustine 3 centuries after Jesus's day. Has America changed a lot in 300 years? Fortunately, the Bible that St. Augustine used we can see today whether in the original languages or not. St. Augustine taught original sin. Romans 5 teaches the opposite, that each and every person sins plenty on their own...

...It all comes down to Bible knowledge. A lot of Bible knowledge will inform you the testaments are much the same, just as you can see TTA atheists hating both testaments with equal fervor!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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03-03-2015, 03:36 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(03-03-2015 02:44 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Both the NT and OT pictures of God include zeal and anger, mercy and kindness. All the feelings and emotions humans have, magnified, if tempered with exceptional (godlike) knowledge and patience.

The doctrine of original sin was put forth by St. Augustine 3 centuries after Jesus's day. Has America changed a lot in 300 years? Fortunately, the Bible that St. Augustine used we can see today whether in the original languages or not. St. Augustine taught original sin. Romans 5 teaches the opposite, that each and every person sins plenty on their own...

...It all comes down to Bible knowledge. A lot of Bible knowledge will inform you the testaments are much the same, just as you can see TTA atheists hating both testaments with equal fervor!


Please do not be offended. I chose to ignore the other comment, because it was not to the point. We can walk in circles for ages arguing the same things over and over again, that's been discussed a lot of times here. I do not intent to do this. What I'm trying to find out is what do you personally feel when you read lines like:
"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."
".. and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. "
" If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife."
"Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die."
Lot offered up his daughters to be gang raped? and then God allows Lot's daughters to later have sex with their father?
I can go on and on. What do you think? are you not disgusted with it? are you not appalled? do you not question how your god can be good but also allowing and sometimes commanding such atrocities? what do you think?
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04-03-2015, 08:06 AM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(03-03-2015 02:38 PM)Happy Wrote:  
(01-03-2015 07:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A seeming paradox.
In the OT, God seems like us. In the NT, when God becomes one of US, we recognize that we are so unlike him. The OT God, was a God in which we often attributed our humanness too. The NT God is so entirely and uniquely human, that he reveals how humanless we are, reveals our inhumanity, in his profound humanity.

I'm sorry I clearly did not understand your point. Can you please elaborate on this? How come it looks like there are 2 gods. But still it's the same god? And how come you can pick and chose what to believe in the bible and what not? Like original sin, some accept that doctrine it, some don't.

Perhaps you haven't read the bible? Because "original sin" is not a concept found in the bible, that one has to pick in choose in order to not believe in it. As I previously stated none of the Gospels writers, nor Jesus linked his life and death to the Garden of Eden story.

And there aren't two Gods in the Bible, but rather the same God seen through the lens of the ancient Hebrew community throughout the length of their history. You see these communities struggling to perceive something from a far off, seeing through a glass darkly, their concepts plagued by the same frail limits of being human. The portrait becomes more vivid and clear for the new testament writers, who see God embodied in the very person of Jesus, the full expression of what their forefathers only seen partly.

The vision of God is a progression throughout scripture, from the local God of a minor tribe of Hebrews, to the sole and only God of humanity. God didn't change, but their perceptions matured and developed, and were more clearly realized over time.
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04-03-2015, 01:20 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(03-03-2015 03:36 PM)Happy Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 02:44 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Both the NT and OT pictures of God include zeal and anger, mercy and kindness. All the feelings and emotions humans have, magnified, if tempered with exceptional (godlike) knowledge and patience.

The doctrine of original sin was put forth by St. Augustine 3 centuries after Jesus's day. Has America changed a lot in 300 years? Fortunately, the Bible that St. Augustine used we can see today whether in the original languages or not. St. Augustine taught original sin. Romans 5 teaches the opposite, that each and every person sins plenty on their own...

...It all comes down to Bible knowledge. A lot of Bible knowledge will inform you the testaments are much the same, just as you can see TTA atheists hating both testaments with equal fervor!


Please do not be offended. I chose to ignore the other comment, because it was not to the point. We can walk in circles for ages arguing the same things over and over again, that's been discussed a lot of times here. I do not intent to do this. What I'm trying to find out is what do you personally feel when you read lines like:
"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."
".. and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. "
" If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife."
"Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die."
Lot offered up his daughters to be gang raped? and then God allows Lot's daughters to later have sex with their father?
I can go on and on. What do you think? are you not disgusted with it? are you not appalled? do you not question how your god can be good but also allowing and sometimes commanding such atrocities? what do you think?

I feel differently than you because if you go on and on, you are continuing with single verses out of context, be it Bible context, historical context, etc. Also because you make statements like "God allows Lot's daughters..." which should be corrected to "God gave sinners free will..."

At least let's confine the discussion to God's own commands that seem challenging to us. I also struggled with each of these the first time I read them, but I've also studied the Bible out to confirm that certain things are correct and righteous. WHY did David have to see his wives ravished? Do you know?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-03-2015, 02:36 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(04-03-2015 08:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The vision of God is a progression throughout scripture, from the local God of a minor tribe of Hebrews, to the sole and only God of humanity. God didn't change, but their perceptions matured and developed, and were more clearly realized over time.

Thank you. this is a great explanation. Our perception of God changed, not other way around. That does make genuine sense to me. However, why do we still have OT in the bible then? What use do we have of it? This is a vision of people who lived over 2000 years ago, the world has changed significantly during this time. We see god differently now, why do we need that old vision?
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04-03-2015, 02:57 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(04-03-2015 02:36 PM)Happy Wrote:  
(04-03-2015 08:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The vision of God is a progression throughout scripture, from the local God of a minor tribe of Hebrews, to the sole and only God of humanity. God didn't change, but their perceptions matured and developed, and were more clearly realized over time.

Thank you. this is a great explanation. Our perception of God changed, not other way around. That does make genuine sense to me. However, why do we still have OT in the bible then? What use do we have of it? This is a vision of people who lived over 2000 years ago, the world has changed significantly during this time. We see god differently now, why do we need that old vision?

Atheists have little use for the OT but Christians rely on it for illumination and the Jewish people for laws and testimonies. Revelation says the purpose of the OT is to illustrate Christ through prophecy.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-03-2015, 03:09 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(04-03-2015 01:20 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  At least let's confine the discussion to God's own commands that seem challenging to us. I also struggled with each of these the first time I read them, but I've also studied the Bible out to confirm that certain things are correct and righteous. WHY did David have to see his wives ravished? Do you know?

Can you please tell me about the struggle you had? And how did you find that rape and murder can be correct and righteous in certain context? And yes, I know about David. Please don't pick on words now, this is a very simple version, but David was basically a dick, took a woman that did not belong to him and killed her husband in a very deceiving and sneaky way, but that does not explain why the child they had together had to die, but funny enough, their next one, Solomon, did live and the lord loved him apparently? But what was wrong with the first one? Why did he had to die, cause his father was a dick? How is that righteous to kill an innocent child? I'm using this only as an example. What I'm interested to hear is your struggle and what was your thought process when you came to the conclusion that god still loves us?
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04-03-2015, 04:48 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(04-03-2015 02:36 PM)Happy Wrote:  
(04-03-2015 08:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The vision of God is a progression throughout scripture, from the local God of a minor tribe of Hebrews, to the sole and only God of humanity. God didn't change, but their perceptions matured and developed, and were more clearly realized over time.

Thank you. this is a great explanation. Our perception of God changed, not other way around. That does make genuine sense to me. However, why do we still have OT in the bible then? What use do we have of it? This is a vision of people who lived over 2000 years ago, the world has changed significantly during this time. We see god differently now, why do we need that old vision?

Well, for starters much of how the new testament fits into the picture is reliant on what proceeded it. It allows us to peer into the Jewish imagination, and it's development over time. The remarkable part of this development is less about the distinctions, as it is certain perceivable similarities, that they are in fact seeing one thing, just more clearly as they go along.

And as much time has passed, how much the world has changed, man is the same. Characters of bible have a far greater moral complexity, a greater intimacy to the questions of life and living, to community and people, than we've ever been able to recreate in our modern scattered world, where deep communities are becoming extinct species. The writers perceive the the human predicament with greater vision, and a piercing acuity, which in our space seems lost.

I'll take the visions of old, over the visions of modernity any day. Their visions are messy and grotesque and as such remain faithful to human life, rather than the dewey eyed visions of bored suburbanites.
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