Reconciling old and new testaments
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 2 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
04-03-2015, 05:07 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
"New Testament"?????

Damned thing was cobbled together in the KJV in 1643......

You call that "New"???

I suppose you go trolling for "young stuff" at the retirement home.....

"Yeah, she's only 67, but she's got the body of an 80 year old..."


...

whatever floats yer boat...

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-03-2015, 09:27 AM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(04-03-2015 03:09 PM)Happy Wrote:  
(04-03-2015 01:20 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  At least let's confine the discussion to God's own commands that seem challenging to us. I also struggled with each of these the first time I read them, but I've also studied the Bible out to confirm that certain things are correct and righteous. WHY did David have to see his wives ravished? Do you know?

Can you please tell me about the struggle you had? And how did you find that rape and murder can be correct and righteous in certain context? And yes, I know about David. Please don't pick on words now, this is a very simple version, but David was basically a dick, took a woman that did not belong to him and killed her husband in a very deceiving and sneaky way, but that does not explain why the child they had together had to die, but funny enough, their next one, Solomon, did live and the lord loved him apparently? But what was wrong with the first one? Why did he had to die, cause his father was a dick? How is that righteous to kill an innocent child? I'm using this only as an example. What I'm interested to hear is your struggle and what was your thought process when you came to the conclusion that god still loves us?

You want to discuss the David story to begin? Sure. Here's my initial thoughts:

1. David did rape and murder. Yes. Bathsheba is portrayed as innocent in the story and David used his position to seduce her, then killed her husband.

2. God did punish David. a) David saw his that his own concubines were ravished by one of his sons. b) David was in a civil war that nearly cost him his life and exiled him for a while from his home and throne. c) David had to deal with uprisings and intrigues for the remainder of his reign, etc. d) The child conceived in David's rape and adultery died.

3. #'s 1 and 2 are only part of the picture above. The third part is that human sin can affect not only the sinner but others. Bathsheba also lost the child and her husband and grieved. The baby itself died, yes. You are correct.

4. There are many babies today who suffer for the sin of their parents. There are crack babies and preemies of moms (and dads) who smoke, drink, drug, have VD, etc. How many of those pregnant moms were told by how many people stop drinking and smoking and drugging before you hurt your child?

5. The struggle you are having is reconciling not 1 and 2, but 3 and 4. How can a good God allow an innocent to suffer for the sin of another? There are several apologetics Christians like to give for this sort of thing:

a) This is why Jesus died. He was as innocent as a newborn regarding sin, as innocent as... a lamb. He died then resurrected so that anyone trusting in Him and these facts could have eternal life. Here, God Himself kills an innocent, but he has a plan and purpose.

b) David said "I will go to my child [later] but he will not return to me [from the dead]." There are critics including some at TTA who say the Old Testament does not indicate afterlife or resurrection of the dead, but here David is admitting his sin and guilt and culpability in the death of his son, and also that he will be with his child after he also dies...

c) The whole Old Testament has countless pictures of Jesus Christ. David mourned over the death of this unique son--he loved Bathsheba inappropriately but he did love her, and an innocent, Bathsheba's first husband, was killed/murdered in battle. God gave a unique son Jesus. Paul says we are wed to the Mosaic law until we die to it to be married to another, Jesus, and so on... often, the more disturbing the Bible story, the more there are pictures of Christ, because the death of Christ looks to be a tragedy until you trust Christ, and because the "secret of the Lord is for those who reverence Him, with them He will acknowledge His covenants" as Psalm 25 tells us.

d) Babies go to Heaven. If mom is a crack addict and her baby pays the ultimate price, the baby really hasn't paid any price at all to go to Heaven.

e) When sin hurts others, it can wake us, often faster than when it hurts us. When crack moms lose their children, sometimes they go clean. When gamblers and drunkards hurt themselves, they go deeper--often when their family experiences pain, they turn around. Sad, but true.

Etc. there are many reasons why our sin hurts others. The Bible to me is less one big story of God's being all-powerful and letting people hurt one another (which is absolutely true!) but a redemption story of choices, free will, chances to redeem this world... God gives people free will, but He will judge them... just not now, always. But sometimes, when sin hurts another, we learn...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes The Q Continuum's post
07-03-2015, 09:57 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2015 10:01 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(05-03-2015 09:27 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-03-2015 03:09 PM)Happy Wrote:  Can you please tell me about the struggle you had? And how did you find that rape and murder can be correct and righteous in certain context? And yes, I know about David. Please don't pick on words now, this is a very simple version, but David was basically a dick, took a woman that did not belong to him and killed her husband in a very deceiving and sneaky way, but that does not explain why the child they had together had to die, but funny enough, their next one, Solomon, did live and the lord loved him apparently? But what was wrong with the first one? Why did he had to die, cause his father was a dick? How is that righteous to kill an innocent child? I'm using this only as an example. What I'm interested to hear is your struggle and what was your thought process when you came to the conclusion that god still loves us?

You want to discuss the David story to begin? Sure. Here's my initial thoughts:

1. David did rape and murder. Yes. Bathsheba is portrayed as innocent in the story and David used his position to seduce her, then killed her husband.

2. God did punish David. a) David saw his that his own concubines were ravished by one of his sons. b) David was in a civil war that nearly cost him his life and exiled him for a while from his home and throne. c) David had to deal with uprisings and intrigues for the remainder of his reign, etc. d) The child conceived in David's rape and adultery died.

3. #'s 1 and 2 are only part of the picture above. The third part is that human sin can affect not only the sinner but others. Bathsheba also lost the child and her husband and grieved. The baby itself died, yes. You are correct.

4. There are many babies today who suffer for the sin of their parents. There are crack babies and preemies of moms (and dads) who smoke, drink, drug, have VD, etc. How many of those pregnant moms were told by how many people stop drinking and smoking and drugging before you hurt your child?

5. The struggle you are having is reconciling not 1 and 2, but 3 and 4. How can a good God allow an innocent to suffer for the sin of another? There are several apologetics Christians like to give for this sort of thing:

a) This is why Jesus died. He was as innocent as a newborn regarding sin, as innocent as... a lamb. He died then resurrected so that anyone trusting in Him and these facts could have eternal life. Here, God Himself kills an innocent, but he has a plan and purpose.

b) David said "I will go to my child [later] but he will not return to me [from the dead]." There are critics including some at TTA who say the Old Testament does not indicate afterlife or resurrection of the dead, but here David is admitting his sin and guilt and culpability in the death of his son, and also that he will be with his child after he also dies...

c) The whole Old Testament has countless pictures of Jesus Christ. David mourned over the death of this unique son--he loved Bathsheba inappropriately but he did love her, and an innocent, Bathsheba's first husband, was killed/murdered in battle. God gave a unique son Jesus. Paul says we are wed to the Mosaic law until we die to it to be married to another, Jesus, and so on... often, the more disturbing the Bible story, the more there are pictures of Christ, because the death of Christ looks to be a tragedy until you trust Christ, and because the "secret of the Lord is for those who reverence Him, with them He will acknowledge His covenants" as Psalm 25 tells us.

d) Babies go to Heaven. If mom is a crack addict and her baby pays the ultimate price, the baby really hasn't paid any price at all to go to Heaven.

e) When sin hurts others, it can wake us, often faster than when it hurts us. When crack moms lose their children, sometimes they go clean. When gamblers and drunkards hurt themselves, they go deeper--often when their family experiences pain, they turn around. Sad, but true.

Etc. there are many reasons why our sin hurts others. The Bible to me is less one big story of God's being all-powerful and letting people hurt one another (which is absolutely true!) but a redemption story of choices, free will, chances to redeem this world... God gives people free will, but He will judge them... just not now, always. But sometimes, when sin hurts another, we learn...

"There are many babies today who suffer for the sin of their parents. There are crack babies and preemies of moms (and dads) who smoke, drink, drug, have VD, etc."

You must obviously come from one of the most Christian parts of the USA where the incidence of Christian religiosity, venereal disease, infantile mortality and teenage pregnancy is the highest in the developed world.Consider

"This is why Jesus died. He was as innocent as a newborn regarding sin, as innocent as... a lamb."

No. Jesus was a very naughty boy. He tried to start a war in Jerusalem and he was knocked off by the Romans. Stop believing mythical bullshit that was written by the Romans.

"If mom is a crack addict and her baby pays the ultimate price, the baby really hasn't paid any price at all to go to Heaven."

You are mentally sick.

"The whole Old Testament has countless pictures of Jesus Christ."

No it doesn't. Your imagination is out of control. The Jewish scripture belongs to a completely different religion to Christianity. It predates Christianity. Ask any Jew. Stop insulting them and making yourself look stupid. Grow up.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Mark Fulton's post
07-03-2015, 10:03 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(05-03-2015 09:27 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-03-2015 03:09 PM)Happy Wrote:  Can you please tell me about the struggle you had? And how did you find that rape and murder can be correct and righteous in certain context? And yes, I know about David. Please don't pick on words now, this is a very simple version, but David was basically a dick, took a woman that did not belong to him and killed her husband in a very deceiving and sneaky way, but that does not explain why the child they had together had to die, but funny enough, their next one, Solomon, did live and the lord loved him apparently? But what was wrong with the first one? Why did he had to die, cause his father was a dick? How is that righteous to kill an innocent child? I'm using this only as an example. What I'm interested to hear is your struggle and what was your thought process when you came to the conclusion that god still loves us?

You want to discuss the David story to begin? Sure. Here's my initial thoughts:

1. David did rape and murder. Yes. Bathsheba is portrayed as innocent in the story and David used his position to seduce her, then killed her husband.

2. God did punish David. a) David saw his that his own concubines were ravished by one of his sons. b) David was in a civil war that nearly cost him his life and exiled him for a while from his home and throne. c) David had to deal with uprisings and intrigues for the remainder of his reign, etc. d) The child conceived in David's rape and adultery died.

3. #'s 1 and 2 are only part of the picture above. The third part is that human sin can affect not only the sinner but others. Bathsheba also lost the child and her husband and grieved. The baby itself died, yes. You are correct.

4. There are many babies today who suffer for the sin of their parents. There are crack babies and preemies of moms (and dads) who smoke, drink, drug, have VD, etc. How many of those pregnant moms were told by how many people stop drinking and smoking and drugging before you hurt your child?

5. The struggle you are having is reconciling not 1 and 2, but 3 and 4. How can a good God allow an innocent to suffer for the sin of another? There are several apologetics Christians like to give for this sort of thing:

a) This is why Jesus died. He was as innocent as a newborn regarding sin, as innocent as... a lamb. He died then resurrected so that anyone trusting in Him and these facts could have eternal life. Here, God Himself kills an innocent, but he has a plan and purpose.

b) David said "I will go to my child [later] but he will not return to me [from the dead]." There are critics including some at TTA who say the Old Testament does not indicate afterlife or resurrection of the dead, but here David is admitting his sin and guilt and culpability in the death of his son, and also that he will be with his child after he also dies...

c) The whole Old Testament has countless pictures of Jesus Christ. David mourned over the death of this unique son--he loved Bathsheba inappropriately but he did love her, and an innocent, Bathsheba's first husband, was killed/murdered in battle. God gave a unique son Jesus. Paul says we are wed to the Mosaic law until we die to it to be married to another, Jesus, and so on... often, the more disturbing the Bible story, the more there are pictures of Christ, because the death of Christ looks to be a tragedy until you trust Christ, and because the "secret of the Lord is for those who reverence Him, with them He will acknowledge His covenants" as Psalm 25 tells us.

d) Babies go to Heaven. If mom is a crack addict and her baby pays the ultimate price, the baby really hasn't paid any price at all to go to Heaven.

e) When sin hurts others, it can wake us, often faster than when it hurts us. When crack moms lose their children, sometimes they go clean. When gamblers and drunkards hurt themselves, they go deeper--often when their family experiences pain, they turn around. Sad, but true.

Etc. there are many reasons why our sin hurts others. The Bible to me is less one big story of God's being all-powerful and letting people hurt one another (which is absolutely true!) but a redemption story of choices, free will, chances to redeem this world... God gives people free will, but He will judge them... just not now, always. But sometimes, when sin hurts another, we learn...

"1 user Likes The Q Continuum's post"

Huh?
Own up.....who was it?
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-03-2015, 12:21 AM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(05-03-2015 09:27 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  d) Babies go to Heaven. If mom is a crack addict and her baby pays the ultimate price, the baby really hasn't paid any price at all to go to Heaven.

You are morally defective. Your religious insanity has warped you.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Chas's post
08-03-2015, 05:49 AM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(05-03-2015 09:27 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  d) Babies go to Heaven. If mom is a crack addict and her baby pays the ultimate price, the baby really hasn't paid any price at all to go to Heaven.

Sorry - I haven't paid close attention to this thread, but this caught my eye. Let me expand on this statement and hear whether you agree with my expansion or not.
1. A dead baby doesn't pay any price at all and will go to Heaven
2. A living baby will grow to either go to heaven or hell, and we know majority will not accept Christianity so will go to hell
3. Therefore, the most moral available to an individual is to kill any child they care about to prevent their likely or even possible lack of acceptance of Christianity

Has the child really lost nothing? I don't see how you avoid the logic above if that is what you think.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Hafnof's post
08-03-2015, 07:06 AM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(07-03-2015 10:03 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "1 user Likes The Q Continuum's post"

Huh?
Own up.....who was it?

Click the little boxed + to the left of "1 user likes..." and it will expand and show you who.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes unfogged's post
08-03-2015, 02:18 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(07-03-2015 10:03 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "1 user Likes The Q Continuum's post"

Huh?
Own up.....who was it?

That was me, cause I finally got an answer to my question: what is your reasoning. Doesn't mean I agree with it, but I acknowledge that there was some thought process there. It's the same with Tomasia's explanation. I do not agree, but I can see how a person come to rationalise his kind of stuff .
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-03-2015, 02:35 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(05-03-2015 09:27 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  c) The whole Old Testament has countless pictures of Jesus Chris

It most certainly does not. That's only your confirmation bias. Most Jews at the time were not waiting for a messiah figure. God had many sons in Hebrew culture. You display again your utter ignorance of Hebrew culture with that tripe you spout, that you learned by rote form your Fundie (non-scholar) teachers. Jesus did not die for sin. If he existed, he was put to death by a standing Roman order in the Pax Romana that all trouble-makers were to be executed. NOTHING about Homo sapiens has changed one iota since his supposed death. There is no heaven. No baby goes anywhere. There is no such thing as free will. Stop preaching this infantile drivel.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post
08-03-2015, 03:31 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(08-03-2015 02:18 PM)Happy Wrote:  
(07-03-2015 10:03 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "1 user Likes The Q Continuum's post"

Huh?
Own up.....who was it?

That was me, cause I finally got an answer to my question: what is your reasoning. Doesn't mean I agree with it, but I acknowledge that there was some thought process there. It's the same with Tomasia's explanation. I do not agree, but I can see how a person come to rationalise his kind of stuff .

Ok. And please don't think I was telling you how to vote...
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Mark Fulton's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: