Reconciling old and new testaments
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08-03-2015, 03:32 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(08-03-2015 07:06 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(07-03-2015 10:03 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "1 user Likes The Q Continuum's post"

Huh?
Own up.....who was it?

Click the little boxed + to the left of "1 user likes..." and it will expand and show you who.

Oh! Thanks!
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09-03-2015, 12:52 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(07-03-2015 09:57 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(05-03-2015 09:27 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You want to discuss the David story to begin? Sure. Here's my initial thoughts:

1. David did rape and murder. Yes. Bathsheba is portrayed as innocent in the story and David used his position to seduce her, then killed her husband.

2. God did punish David. a) David saw his that his own concubines were ravished by one of his sons. b) David was in a civil war that nearly cost him his life and exiled him for a while from his home and throne. c) David had to deal with uprisings and intrigues for the remainder of his reign, etc. d) The child conceived in David's rape and adultery died.

3. #'s 1 and 2 are only part of the picture above. The third part is that human sin can affect not only the sinner but others. Bathsheba also lost the child and her husband and grieved. The baby itself died, yes. You are correct.

4. There are many babies today who suffer for the sin of their parents. There are crack babies and preemies of moms (and dads) who smoke, drink, drug, have VD, etc. How many of those pregnant moms were told by how many people stop drinking and smoking and drugging before you hurt your child?

5. The struggle you are having is reconciling not 1 and 2, but 3 and 4. How can a good God allow an innocent to suffer for the sin of another? There are several apologetics Christians like to give for this sort of thing:

a) This is why Jesus died. He was as innocent as a newborn regarding sin, as innocent as... a lamb. He died then resurrected so that anyone trusting in Him and these facts could have eternal life. Here, God Himself kills an innocent, but he has a plan and purpose.

b) David said "I will go to my child [later] but he will not return to me [from the dead]." There are critics including some at TTA who say the Old Testament does not indicate afterlife or resurrection of the dead, but here David is admitting his sin and guilt and culpability in the death of his son, and also that he will be with his child after he also dies...

c) The whole Old Testament has countless pictures of Jesus Christ. David mourned over the death of this unique son--he loved Bathsheba inappropriately but he did love her, and an innocent, Bathsheba's first husband, was killed/murdered in battle. God gave a unique son Jesus. Paul says we are wed to the Mosaic law until we die to it to be married to another, Jesus, and so on... often, the more disturbing the Bible story, the more there are pictures of Christ, because the death of Christ looks to be a tragedy until you trust Christ, and because the "secret of the Lord is for those who reverence Him, with them He will acknowledge His covenants" as Psalm 25 tells us.

d) Babies go to Heaven. If mom is a crack addict and her baby pays the ultimate price, the baby really hasn't paid any price at all to go to Heaven.

e) When sin hurts others, it can wake us, often faster than when it hurts us. When crack moms lose their children, sometimes they go clean. When gamblers and drunkards hurt themselves, they go deeper--often when their family experiences pain, they turn around. Sad, but true.

Etc. there are many reasons why our sin hurts others. The Bible to me is less one big story of God's being all-powerful and letting people hurt one another (which is absolutely true!) but a redemption story of choices, free will, chances to redeem this world... God gives people free will, but He will judge them... just not now, always. But sometimes, when sin hurts another, we learn...

"There are many babies today who suffer for the sin of their parents. There are crack babies and preemies of moms (and dads) who smoke, drink, drug, have VD, etc."

You must obviously come from one of the most Christian parts of the USA where the incidence of Christian religiosity, venereal disease, infantile mortality and teenage pregnancy is the highest in the developed world.Consider

"This is why Jesus died. He was as innocent as a newborn regarding sin, as innocent as... a lamb."

No. Jesus was a very naughty boy. He tried to start a war in Jerusalem and he was knocked off by the Romans. Stop believing mythical bullshit that was written by the Romans.

"If mom is a crack addict and her baby pays the ultimate price, the baby really hasn't paid any price at all to go to Heaven."

You are mentally sick.

"The whole Old Testament has countless pictures of Jesus Christ."

No it doesn't. Your imagination is out of control. The Jewish scripture belongs to a completely different religion to Christianity. It predates Christianity. Ask any Jew. Stop insulting them and making yourself look stupid. Grow up.

Your biases are showing. Sin is sin, whether or not it happens in a Christian country, are you actually wanting to somehow justify a mom who takes crack knowing her baby will be deformed?

The whole Old Testament has countless pictures of Jesus, as any Messianic Jew will tell you. I know there are only several million of them against several million more Jewish persons who are non-Messianic, so I'll wait for some kind of ad populum from you know, I guess.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-03-2015, 12:54 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(08-03-2015 05:49 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(05-03-2015 09:27 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  d) Babies go to Heaven. If mom is a crack addict and her baby pays the ultimate price, the baby really hasn't paid any price at all to go to Heaven.

Sorry - I haven't paid close attention to this thread, but this caught my eye. Let me expand on this statement and hear whether you agree with my expansion or not.
1. A dead baby doesn't pay any price at all and will go to Heaven
2. A living baby will grow to either go to heaven or hell, and we know majority will not accept Christianity so will go to hell
3. Therefore, the most moral available to an individual is to kill any child they care about to prevent their likely or even possible lack of acceptance of Christianity

Has the child really lost nothing? I don't see how you avoid the logic above if that is what you think.

I address this on another thread today, but suffice it to say here that you have herein used logic to justify infanticide. You may murder, God can kill and give life after death. Logic used to justify infanticide is an excess of TTA-styled logic without godly love or human compassion. I don't want to kill babies nor do you. But God kills people everyday.

In other words, I can be empathetic, even sympathetic, and understand why the Exodus story makes you indignant, but if it makes you fear, that might be a good thing.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-03-2015, 12:55 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(08-03-2015 02:35 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-03-2015 09:27 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  c) The whole Old Testament has countless pictures of Jesus Chris

It most certainly does not. That's only your confirmation bias. Most Jews at the time were not waiting for a messiah figure. God had many sons in Hebrew culture. You display again your utter ignorance of Hebrew culture with that tripe you spout, that you learned by rote form your Fundie (non-scholar) teachers. Jesus did not die for sin. If he existed, he was put to death by a standing Roman order in the Pax Romana that all trouble-makers were to be executed. NOTHING about Homo sapiens has changed one iota since his supposed death. There is no heaven. No baby goes anywhere. There is no such thing as free will. Stop preaching this infantile drivel.

There have been both detailed explorations of type and shadow of Christ and excellent books written about the changes in the world due to the Messiah's advent. Your rhetoric is showing.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-03-2015, 06:24 PM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2015 06:29 PM by Hafnof.)
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(09-03-2015 12:54 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 05:49 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(05-03-2015 09:27 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  d) Babies go to Heaven. If mom is a crack addict and her baby pays the ultimate price, the baby really hasn't paid any price at all to go to Heaven.
Sorry - I haven't paid close attention to this thread, but this caught my eye. Let me expand on this statement and hear whether you agree with my expansion or not.
1. A dead baby doesn't pay any price at all and will go to Heaven
2. A living baby will grow to either go to heaven or hell, and we know majority will not accept Christianity so will go to hell
3. Therefore, the most moral available to an individual is to kill any child they care about to prevent their likely or even possible lack of acceptance of Christianity

Has the child really lost nothing? I don't see how you avoid the logic above if that is what you think.

I address this on another thread today, but suffice it to say here that you have herein used logic to justify infanticide. You may murder, God can kill and give life after death. Logic used to justify infanticide is an excess of TTA-styled logic without godly love or human compassion. I don't want to kill babies nor do you. But God kills people everyday.

In other words, I can be empathetic, even sympathetic, and understand why the Exodus story makes you indignant, but if it makes you fear, that might be a good thing.

Interesting. So when you see the logical outworking of your own statements and your own beliefs this causes you to blame others, and think they are morally flawed? You continue to say that the child has lost nothing?

I say the child has paid a price. If you agree with that proposition I'll be able to return the rep I deducted for your statements above.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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09-03-2015, 06:34 PM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2015 06:37 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(09-03-2015 12:52 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(07-03-2015 09:57 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "There are many babies today who suffer for the sin of their parents. There are crack babies and preemies of moms (and dads) who smoke, drink, drug, have VD, etc."

You must obviously come from one of the most Christian parts of the USA where the incidence of Christian religiosity, venereal disease, infantile mortality and teenage pregnancy is the highest in the developed world.Consider

"This is why Jesus died. He was as innocent as a newborn regarding sin, as innocent as... a lamb."

No. Jesus was a very naughty boy. He tried to start a war in Jerusalem and he was knocked off by the Romans. Stop believing mythical bullshit that was written by the Romans.

"If mom is a crack addict and her baby pays the ultimate price, the baby really hasn't paid any price at all to go to Heaven."

You are mentally sick.

"The whole Old Testament has countless pictures of Jesus Christ."

No it doesn't. Your imagination is out of control. The Jewish scripture belongs to a completely different religion to Christianity. It predates Christianity. Ask any Jew. Stop insulting them and making yourself look stupid. Grow up.

Your biases are showing. Sin is sin, whether or not it happens in a Christian country, are you actually wanting to somehow justify a mom who takes crack knowing her baby will be deformed?

The whole Old Testament has countless pictures of Jesus, as any Messianic Jew will tell you. I know there are only several million of them against several million more Jewish persons who are non-Messianic, so I'll wait for some kind of ad populum from you know, I guess.

"The whole Old Testament has countless pictures of Jesus, as any Messianic Jew will tell you."

Please point me towards one (of your several million) article or video in which a Jew thinks that Jesus is depicted in the old Testament. I'm willing to grant that there may be someone out there, the odd Jewish person, who thinks this, and I would be very interested to hear what they have to say and what their credentials are.

What is your understanding of the Jewish Messiah? How can you possibly believe that your Jesus, either a genuine historical figure or one just imagined, possibly fulfilled the requirements of a Jewish Messiah?
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09-03-2015, 06:36 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(09-03-2015 12:52 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(07-03-2015 09:57 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "There are many babies today who suffer for the sin of their parents. There are crack babies and preemies of moms (and dads) who smoke, drink, drug, have VD, etc."

You must obviously come from one of the most Christian parts of the USA where the incidence of Christian religiosity, venereal disease, infantile mortality and teenage pregnancy is the highest in the developed world.Consider

"This is why Jesus died. He was as innocent as a newborn regarding sin, as innocent as... a lamb."

No. Jesus was a very naughty boy. He tried to start a war in Jerusalem and he was knocked off by the Romans. Stop believing mythical bullshit that was written by the Romans.

"If mom is a crack addict and her baby pays the ultimate price, the baby really hasn't paid any price at all to go to Heaven."

You are mentally sick.

"The whole Old Testament has countless pictures of Jesus Christ."

No it doesn't. Your imagination is out of control. The Jewish scripture belongs to a completely different religion to Christianity. It predates Christianity. Ask any Jew. Stop insulting them and making yourself look stupid. Grow up.

Your biases are showing. Sin is sin, whether or not it happens in a Christian country, are you actually wanting to somehow justify a mom who takes crack knowing her baby will be deformed?

The whole Old Testament has countless pictures of Jesus, as any Messianic Jew will tell you. I know there are only several million of them against several million more Jewish persons who are non-Messianic, so I'll wait for some kind of ad populum from you know, I guess.

"Your biases are showing."

I have no idea what you're talking about. Please explain.
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09-03-2015, 06:48 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(09-03-2015 12:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 02:35 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It most certainly does not. That's only your confirmation bias. Most Jews at the time were not waiting for a messiah figure. God had many sons in Hebrew culture. You display again your utter ignorance of Hebrew culture with that tripe you spout, that you learned by rote form your Fundie (non-scholar) teachers. Jesus did not die for sin. If he existed, he was put to death by a standing Roman order in the Pax Romana that all trouble-makers were to be executed. NOTHING about Homo sapiens has changed one iota since his supposed death. There is no heaven. No baby goes anywhere. There is no such thing as free will. Stop preaching this infantile drivel.

There have been both detailed explorations of type and shadow of Christ and excellent books written about the changes in the world due to the Messiah's advent. Your rhetoric is showing.

"There have been both detailed explorations of type and shadow of Christ..."

I assume you are referring to articles or books written about the appearance of Jesus in the old Testament. Such literature is written by over imaginative evangelical types. Underneath the flowery wording there are some undeniable facts that undermine their rambling....

Did Scripture Predict Jesus?
Christians often claim the Old Testament prophesied details of Jesus’ birth, his missionary zeal, miracles, preaching, the betrayal by a friend, his death, resurrection and ascension, and many other aspects of his life. These Christians maintain Jesus must have been the messiah because he makes so many of these supposed prophecies come true. Hebrew scholars have always denied this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism’s_view_of_Jesus). There are many reasons why Jesus wasn’t the messiah.

Firstly, it’s well accepted by most scholars that the New Testament authors tried to craft their Jesus stories to fit parts of the messiah tradition, and what’s more, there are numerous instances where the authors had a flawed understanding of scripture, or else deliberately changed its meaning, then claimed Jesus was fulfilling their incorrect interpretation. Jesus’ genealogies, (both of them) his birth in Bethlehem, his birth to a virgin mother, (only mentioned in two of four gospels) and his journey to Egypt are examples.

Secondly, the Old Testament writings that are said to foretell the coming of Jesus are not really predictions of anything to come.

Thirdly, Jesus never fulfilled the key requirements of a Jewish messiah.

Fourth, most of the ancient Jews, the very people whose ancestors wrote the Old Testament, rejected Yeshua as their messiah. The people who associated with Jesus, his fellow Jews, knew him best.

As best we know, Jesus had minimal contact with Gentiles until he was nailed to a cross.

Why should Christians presume to know better than Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries? (http://www.youtube.com/user/JewsforJudai...-g_TtGhI).
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09-03-2015, 07:02 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(09-03-2015 12:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(08-03-2015 02:35 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It most certainly does not. That's only your confirmation bias. Most Jews at the time were not waiting for a messiah figure. God had many sons in Hebrew culture. You display again your utter ignorance of Hebrew culture with that tripe you spout, that you learned by rote form your Fundie (non-scholar) teachers. Jesus did not die for sin. If he existed, he was put to death by a standing Roman order in the Pax Romana that all trouble-makers were to be executed. NOTHING about Homo sapiens has changed one iota since his supposed death. There is no heaven. No baby goes anywhere. There is no such thing as free will. Stop preaching this infantile drivel.

There have been both detailed explorations of type and shadow of Christ and excellent books written about the changes in the world due to the Messiah's advent. Your rhetoric is showing.

"excellent books written about the changes in the world due to the Messiah's advent".

Agreed. You would be referring to books written about the behaviour of Christians over the centuries...

A Shameful History
In centuries past, starting in the fourth, many church people were intolerant, zealous, greedy and violent. They slaughtered or imprisoned those they called infidels, heathens or heretics, and set alight all libraries and literature they disliked.

Ponder over the role churches played throughout history, with their hatred and bitterness, the persecutions, the cruel wars, the taking of people’s assets, the sale of indulgences, the breaking up of families, and the resistance to science and medicine. Then think how they founded schools, and the indoctrination of youngsters with songs, prayers and Christian instruction. Consider the callous cover-ups of sexual abuse. Reflect on how they’ve always tried to tell people what to think and how to behave using unproven promises of heaven and threats of hell.

Christian churches, inspired by greed, have been at war with science and humanity throughout most of their history. They’ve supported many social evils – wicked monarchies, slavery, racism, the oppression of women, homophobia, child labor and pedophilia. They’ve used indoctrination, lies, threats, wars, slavery, torture and murder pursuing power and money. This behavior has been far more terrifying and bloody than that of all the other religions of the world combined. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZUk9umGbH0,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwWXEV7MHgc). Today’s Islamic terrorists are pussies in comparison.

The “Dark Ages,” a term that can only refer to a period in Western Europe’s history, were the dismal, bloody and ignorant centuries of Christian supremacy, and churches kept us there! There were no churches in China, the Americas or Australia, and no “dark age” in those places. Had it not been for churches, we would surely now be living in a more peaceful, scientifically advanced and civilized world. (http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issu...logy.asp).
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10-03-2015, 10:35 AM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(09-03-2015 06:24 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 12:54 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I address this on another thread today, but suffice it to say here that you have herein used logic to justify infanticide. You may murder, God can kill and give life after death. Logic used to justify infanticide is an excess of TTA-styled logic without godly love or human compassion. I don't want to kill babies nor do you. But God kills people everyday.

In other words, I can be empathetic, even sympathetic, and understand why the Exodus story makes you indignant, but if it makes you fear, that might be a good thing.

Interesting. So when you see the logical outworking of your own statements and your own beliefs this causes you to blame others, and think they are morally flawed? You continue to say that the child has lost nothing?

I say the child has paid a price. If you agree with that proposition I'll be able to return the rep I deducted for your statements above.

The child loses a lot on the Earth and with its parents, of course it does. I absolutely agree. And I realize that as an atheist it's hard for you to agree with me that eternity in Heaven is compensation as well...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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