Reconciling old and new testaments
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 2 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
10-03-2015, 10:46 AM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(09-03-2015 06:34 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 12:52 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Your biases are showing. Sin is sin, whether or not it happens in a Christian country, are you actually wanting to somehow justify a mom who takes crack knowing her baby will be deformed?

The whole Old Testament has countless pictures of Jesus, as any Messianic Jew will tell you. I know there are only several million of them against several million more Jewish persons who are non-Messianic, so I'll wait for some kind of ad populum from you know, I guess.

"The whole Old Testament has countless pictures of Jesus, as any Messianic Jew will tell you."

Please point me towards one (of your several million) article or video in which a Jew thinks that Jesus is depicted in the old Testament. I'm willing to grant that there may be someone out there, the odd Jewish person, who thinks this, and I would be very interested to hear what they have to say and what their credentials are.

What is your understanding of the Jewish Messiah? How can you possibly believe that your Jesus, either a genuine historical figure or one just imagined, possibly fulfilled the requirements of a Jewish Messiah?

Hi Mark,

You raised a number of important points across several messages now, so I'll start here if I may.

There are several million (estimated) Messianic Jews. Many of them do not believe Jesus is God, but they believe He is Messiah. I know you will understand their stance as Judaism has taken every possible measure to distance itself (since soon after 100 CE, anyway) from Christianity. It is hard for Messianic Jews to go against what is so deeply ingrained, but they usually MUST study Messianic prophecy to trust Jesus as Messiah to overcome those kinds of hurdles.

Again, most of these several million Messianic Jews understand that the OT prophesies a redemptive Messiah and that he is Jesus. Some of these millions of Jews grew up Reform in some inner city like NYC or L.A. Some grew up Orthodox or Hasidic. Some attended a Christian seminary. Some were rabbis before they were believers. Some were ordained as Messianic rabbis following conversion. Some speak fluent Hebrew. Some study ancient Hebrew. Others Talmud, Kabbalah, gematria, etc.

I can see in the measure of a world with almost 7 b[/i]illion a few million Jews seems to you to be very few people. But it's still millions of people.

I have debated numerous Jews, both Messianic and non-Messianic, regarding the prophecy fulfillments of Jesus Christ. Context is important here. I'll start by assuming you will claim Jesus didn't fulfill the Messianic promises of world peace, say in Isaiah 11. Of course, Armageddon hasn't happened yet either, and that precedes the Millennial Kingdom in both testaments, so there's that.

I really don't want to argue with you about how Jesus isn't the OT Messiah because if you're an atheist, you're not a zealous Jew who cares enough about the OT to study it. Same if you're a deconverted Xian. And I've told you, I've been through the ringer and back with secular university "criticism" for more than two decades now. You don't believe in either testament, so what is your point?

"If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me."[i] -- John 5:46

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-03-2015, 04:28 PM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2015 04:32 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(10-03-2015 10:46 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 06:34 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "The whole Old Testament has countless pictures of Jesus, as any Messianic Jew will tell you."

Please point me towards one (of your several million) article or video in which a Jew thinks that Jesus is depicted in the old Testament. I'm willing to grant that there may be someone out there, the odd Jewish person, who thinks this, and I would be very interested to hear what they have to say and what their credentials are.

What is your understanding of the Jewish Messiah? How can you possibly believe that your Jesus, either a genuine historical figure or one just imagined, possibly fulfilled the requirements of a Jewish Messiah?

Hi Mark,

You raised a number of important points across several messages now, so I'll start here if I may.

There are several million (estimated) Messianic Jews. Many of them do not believe Jesus is God, but they believe He is Messiah. I know you will understand their stance as Judaism has taken every possible measure to distance itself (since soon after 100 CE, anyway) from Christianity. It is hard for Messianic Jews to go against what is so deeply ingrained, but they usually MUST study Messianic prophecy to trust Jesus as Messiah to overcome those kinds of hurdles.

Again, most of these several million Messianic Jews understand that the OT prophesies a redemptive Messiah and that he is Jesus. Some of these millions of Jews grew up Reform in some inner city like NYC or L.A. Some grew up Orthodox or Hasidic. Some attended a Christian seminary. Some were rabbis before they were believers. Some were ordained as Messianic rabbis following conversion. Some speak fluent Hebrew. Some study ancient Hebrew. Others Talmud, Kabbalah, gematria, etc.

I can see in the measure of a world with almost 7 b[/i]illion a few million Jews seems to you to be very few people. But it's still millions of people.

I have debated numerous Jews, both Messianic and non-Messianic, regarding the prophecy fulfillments of Jesus Christ. Context is important here. I'll start by assuming you will claim Jesus didn't fulfill the Messianic promises of world peace, say in Isaiah 11. Of course, Armageddon hasn't happened yet either, and that precedes the Millennial Kingdom in both testaments, so there's that.

I really don't want to argue with you about how Jesus isn't the OT Messiah because if you're an atheist, you're not a zealous Jew who cares enough about the OT to study it. Same if you're a deconverted Xian. And I've told you, I've been through the ringer and back with secular university "criticism" for more than two decades now. You don't believe in either testament, so what is your point?

"If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me." -- John 5:46

[i]"There are several million (estimated) Messianic Jews."

I agree that some Jews today are still waiting their Messiah.

"Many of them do not believe Jesus is God, but they believe He is Messiah."

No. none of them believe Jesus was God. Jews by definition are monotheists. They believe in the one and only God, Yahweh. If any of them believe Jesus was God they are by definition not Jewish.

"but they believe He is Messiah."

NO. For the Jews the kingdom of God promised in scripture never was in a hypothetical heaven, but was to be on earth in the here and now. The real Jewish messiah wasn’t some savior of souls, but was to be a leader of the Jews who was to herald in a glorious age in which Israel triumphed and pagans recognized the glory of Israel’s god, Yahweh. The Jewish messiah was to build the temple, (Ezek. 37:26–28) gather all Jews back to Israel, (Isa. 43:5–6) and, importantly, bring an end to Roman rule. The Jewish messiah was supposed to end all exploitation, corruption, famine, disease, and war. Paul’s fictional Christ had done none of this!

You have not provided the details of a single Jew who thinks your Jeebus was their messiah. Get real.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-03-2015, 05:21 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(10-03-2015 10:46 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 06:34 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "The whole Old Testament has countless pictures of Jesus, as any Messianic Jew will tell you."

Please point me towards one (of your several million) article or video in which a Jew thinks that Jesus is depicted in the old Testament. I'm willing to grant that there may be someone out there, the odd Jewish person, who thinks this, and I would be very interested to hear what they have to say and what their credentials are.

What is your understanding of the Jewish Messiah? How can you possibly believe that your Jesus, either a genuine historical figure or one just imagined, possibly fulfilled the requirements of a Jewish Messiah?

Hi Mark,

You raised a number of important points across several messages now, so I'll start here if I may.

There are several million (estimated) Messianic Jews. Many of them do not believe Jesus is God, but they believe He is Messiah. I know you will understand their stance as Judaism has taken every possible measure to distance itself (since soon after 100 CE, anyway) from Christianity. It is hard for Messianic Jews to go against what is so deeply ingrained, but they usually MUST study Messianic prophecy to trust Jesus as Messiah to overcome those kinds of hurdles.

Again, most of these several million Messianic Jews understand that the OT prophesies a redemptive Messiah and that he is Jesus. Some of these millions of Jews grew up Reform in some inner city like NYC or L.A. Some grew up Orthodox or Hasidic. Some attended a Christian seminary. Some were rabbis before they were believers. Some were ordained as Messianic rabbis following conversion. Some speak fluent Hebrew. Some study ancient Hebrew. Others Talmud, Kabbalah, gematria, etc.

I can see in the measure of a world with almost 7 b[/i]illion a few million Jews seems to you to be very few people. But it's still millions of people.

I have debated numerous Jews, both Messianic and non-Messianic, regarding the prophecy fulfillments of Jesus Christ. Context is important here. I'll start by assuming you will claim Jesus didn't fulfill the Messianic promises of world peace, say in Isaiah 11. Of course, Armageddon hasn't happened yet either, and that precedes the Millennial Kingdom in both testaments, so there's that.

I really don't want to argue with you about how Jesus isn't the OT Messiah because if you're an atheist, you're not a zealous Jew who cares enough about the OT to study it. Same if you're a deconverted Xian. And I've told you, I've been through the ringer and back with secular university "criticism" for more than two decades now. You don't believe in either testament, so what is your point?

"If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me."[i] -- John 5:46

"Some were rabbis before they were believers."

I understand what you're trying to say. You're saying people who were born Jewish have converted to Christianity. Therefore, in your mind, "Jews" are Christians. The reality is however that if they are now Christians they are no longer Jewish in the religious sense.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-03-2015, 05:41 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(10-03-2015 10:46 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 06:34 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "The whole Old Testament has countless pictures of Jesus, as any Messianic Jew will tell you."

Please point me towards one (of your several million) article or video in which a Jew thinks that Jesus is depicted in the old Testament. I'm willing to grant that there may be someone out there, the odd Jewish person, who thinks this, and I would be very interested to hear what they have to say and what their credentials are.

What is your understanding of the Jewish Messiah? How can you possibly believe that your Jesus, either a genuine historical figure or one just imagined, possibly fulfilled the requirements of a Jewish Messiah?

Hi Mark,

You raised a number of important points across several messages now, so I'll start here if I may.

There are several million (estimated) Messianic Jews. Many of them do not believe Jesus is God, but they believe He is Messiah. I know you will understand their stance as Judaism has taken every possible measure to distance itself (since soon after 100 CE, anyway) from Christianity. It is hard for Messianic Jews to go against what is so deeply ingrained, but they usually MUST study Messianic prophecy to trust Jesus as Messiah to overcome those kinds of hurdles.

Again, most of these several million Messianic Jews understand that the OT prophesies a redemptive Messiah and that he is Jesus. Some of these millions of Jews grew up Reform in some inner city like NYC or L.A. Some grew up Orthodox or Hasidic. Some attended a Christian seminary. Some were rabbis before they were believers. Some were ordained as Messianic rabbis following conversion. Some speak fluent Hebrew. Some study ancient Hebrew. Others Talmud, Kabbalah, gematria, etc.

I can see in the measure of a world with almost 7 b[/i]illion a few million Jews seems to you to be very few people. But it's still millions of people.

I have debated numerous Jews, both Messianic and non-Messianic, regarding the prophecy fulfillments of Jesus Christ. Context is important here. I'll start by assuming you will claim Jesus didn't fulfill the Messianic promises of world peace, say in Isaiah 11. Of course, Armageddon hasn't happened yet either, and that precedes the Millennial Kingdom in both testaments, so there's that.

I really don't want to argue with you about how Jesus isn't the OT Messiah because if you're an atheist, you're not a zealous Jew who cares enough about the OT to study it. Same if you're a deconverted Xian. And I've told you, I've been through the ringer and back with secular university "criticism" for more than two decades now. You don't believe in either testament, so what is your point?

"If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me." -- John 5:46

[i]"I really don't want to argue with you about how Jesus isn't the OT Messiah because if you're an atheist, you're not a zealous Jew who cares enough about the OT to study it. Same if you're a deconverted Xian."

Pathetic! You're avoiding debating with me because I'm not a Jew or a Christian, so you therefore claim I cannot possibly know what I'm talking about! How about you stick to the topic. I'll remind you that this is a thinking person's forum. If you use logical fallacies here to make a noise you'll be shouted down.

"And I've told you, I've been through the ringer and back with secular university "criticism" for more than two decades now."

Good for you. What are you doing here? Why not just sit on an old rocking chair and reminisce about how right you are? If this is how you present your ideas at university you would be shot off at the kneecaps.


You don't believe in either testament, so what is your point?

Why don't you actually read what I posted, you weary old Christian warrior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Mark Fulton's post
10-03-2015, 06:24 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(10-03-2015 10:35 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(09-03-2015 06:24 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  Interesting. So when you see the logical outworking of your own statements and your own beliefs this causes you to blame others, and think they are morally flawed? You continue to say that the child has lost nothing?

I say the child has paid a price. If you agree with that proposition I'll be able to return the rep I deducted for your statements above.

The child loses a lot on the Earth and with its parents, of course it does. I absolutely agree. And I realize that as an atheist it's hard for you to agree with me that eternity in Heaven is compensation as well...

As you have withdrawn your statement that "the baby really hasn't paid any price at all to go to Heaven" I'll restore your rep to neutral, but I urge you to think more seriously about a moral philosophy that says that infanticide is just fine and dandy so long as it is god ordering the killings. That's not a healthy view of morality. Nor is it a healthy view of morality to have acceptance of Christianity your sole determiner of whether a person should be eternally compensated or eternally tortured.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Hafnof's post
11-03-2015, 12:26 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(10-03-2015 06:24 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 10:35 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The child loses a lot on the Earth and with its parents, of course it does. I absolutely agree. And I realize that as an atheist it's hard for you to agree with me that eternity in Heaven is compensation as well...

As you have withdrawn your statement that "the baby really hasn't paid any price at all to go to Heaven" I'll restore your rep to neutral, but I urge you to think more seriously about a moral philosophy that says that infanticide is just fine and dandy so long as it is god ordering the killings. That's not a healthy view of morality. Nor is it a healthy view of morality to have acceptance of Christianity your sole determiner of whether a person should be eternally compensated or eternally tortured.

I'd ask you to extend that logically to all mankind, since all of us shall die. Is God murdering people when they die, as all die? Is every death therefore a murder? Or is it different, that each person is eternal in nature?

I was encouraged to have read this in my "quiet time" today:

"Whoever lives by believing in me will never die," -- from John's gospel

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-03-2015, 12:35 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(10-03-2015 04:28 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 10:46 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Hi Mark,

You raised a number of important points across several messages now, so I'll start here if I may.

There are several million (estimated) Messianic Jews. Many of them do not believe Jesus is God, but they believe He is Messiah. I know you will understand their stance as Judaism has taken every possible measure to distance itself (since soon after 100 CE, anyway) from Christianity. It is hard for Messianic Jews to go against what is so deeply ingrained, but they usually MUST study Messianic prophecy to trust Jesus as Messiah to overcome those kinds of hurdles.

Again, most of these several million Messianic Jews understand that the OT prophesies a redemptive Messiah and that he is Jesus. Some of these millions of Jews grew up Reform in some inner city like NYC or L.A. Some grew up Orthodox or Hasidic. Some attended a Christian seminary. Some were rabbis before they were believers. Some were ordained as Messianic rabbis following conversion. Some speak fluent Hebrew. Some study ancient Hebrew. Others Talmud, Kabbalah, gematria, etc.

I can see in the measure of a world with almost 7 b[/i]illion a few million Jews seems to you to be very few people. But it's still millions of people.

I have debated numerous Jews, both Messianic and non-Messianic, regarding the prophecy fulfillments of Jesus Christ. Context is important here. I'll start by assuming you will claim Jesus didn't fulfill the Messianic promises of world peace, say in Isaiah 11. Of course, Armageddon hasn't happened yet either, and that precedes the Millennial Kingdom in both testaments, so there's that.

I really don't want to argue with you about how Jesus isn't the OT Messiah because if you're an atheist, you're not a zealous Jew who cares enough about the OT to study it. Same if you're a deconverted Xian. And I've told you, I've been through the ringer and back with secular university "criticism" for more than two decades now. You don't believe in either testament, so what is your point?

"If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me." -- John 5:46

[i]"There are several million (estimated) Messianic Jews."

I agree that some Jews today are still waiting their Messiah.

"Many of them do not believe Jesus is God, but they believe He is Messiah."

No. none of them believe Jesus was God. Jews by definition are monotheists. They believe in the one and only God, Yahweh. If any of them believe Jesus was God they are by definition not Jewish.

"but they believe He is Messiah."

NO. For the Jews the kingdom of God promised in scripture never was in a hypothetical heaven, but was to be on earth in the here and now. The real Jewish messiah wasn’t some savior of souls, but was to be a leader of the Jews who was to herald in a glorious age in which Israel triumphed and pagans recognized the glory of Israel’s god, Yahweh. The Jewish messiah was to build the temple, (Ezek. 37:26–28) gather all Jews back to Israel, (Isa. 43:5–6) and, importantly, bring an end to Roman rule. The Jewish messiah was supposed to end all exploitation, corruption, famine, disease, and war. Paul’s fictional Christ had done none of this!

You have not provided the details of a single Jew who thinks your Jeebus was their messiah. Get real.

Mark,

1. No, I haven't provided details of a single Jew who trusts Jesus. I merely mentioned that there are millions of active Messianic Jews, and in Messianic and Gentile congregations. I'm sure you've heard of Jews for Jesus? 100% of their staff and volunteers are Jews for one example, in case you'd like to review specific Jewish commentators and apologists for Jesus online.

2. Yes, I'm well aware that academia rejects the Bible as God's Word--secular academia and not seminaries, anyway. Yes. In typical secular universities, they also promote diversity to the point of marginalizing all evangelicals, and promote "free love" and abortion and...? Your point, please?

3. I'm already aware, as I've already mentioned, that Judaism broke away from the plural majesty echad view of God toward a yachid singular view--particularly, by the way, in the context of Maimonides articles of Jewish faith, in large part as a response to the Spanish inquisition. However, both heaven and a plural, triune God are in the Hebrew scriptures. And while a Jewish person who has not trusted yet in Y'shua affirms the monotheist nature of God today, and would say a Messianic Jew is an apostate Jew, they are still a Jew, entitled to a Jewish burial, etc. No Jewish man becomes uncircumcised when He trusts Jesus! And Jesus claimed to be the Jewish Messiah. However much you or another Jewish scholar wants to skirt the issue, there is a Messiah in Judaism and Jews who trust Christ... are trusting Messiah (of course, as you know, Christ = Messiah). Please don't try any sophistry to say that even the word Messiah is of anything but Hebrew derivation.

I hope if we continue to debate the issues we can do so calmly and logically. Thank you.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-03-2015, 01:09 PM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2015 02:06 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(11-03-2015 12:35 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 04:28 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "There are several million (estimated) Messianic Jews."

I agree that some Jews today are still waiting their Messiah.

"Many of them do not believe Jesus is God, but they believe He is Messiah."

No. none of them believe Jesus was God. Jews by definition are monotheists. They believe in the one and only God, Yahweh. If any of them believe Jesus was God they are by definition not Jewish.

"but they believe He is Messiah."

NO. For the Jews the kingdom of God promised in scripture never was in a hypothetical heaven, but was to be on earth in the here and now. The real Jewish messiah wasn’t some savior of souls, but was to be a leader of the Jews who was to herald in a glorious age in which Israel triumphed and pagans recognized the glory of Israel’s god, Yahweh. The Jewish messiah was to build the temple, (Ezek. 37:26–28) gather all Jews back to Israel, (Isa. 43:5–6) and, importantly, bring an end to Roman rule. The Jewish messiah was supposed to end all exploitation, corruption, famine, disease, and war. Paul’s fictional Christ had done none of this!

You have not provided the details of a single Jew who thinks your Jeebus was their messiah. Get real.

Mark,

1. No, I haven't provided details of a single Jew who trusts Jesus. I merely mentioned that there are millions of active Messianic Jews, and in Messianic and Gentile congregations. I'm sure you've heard of Jews for Jesus? 100% of their staff and volunteers are Jews for one example, in case you'd like to review specific Jewish commentators and apologists for Jesus online.

2. Yes, I'm well aware that academia rejects the Bible as God's Word--secular academia and not seminaries, anyway. Yes. In typical secular universities, they also promote diversity to the point of marginalizing all evangelicals, and promote "free love" and abortion and...? Your point, please?

3. I'm already aware, as I've already mentioned, that Judaism broke away from the plural majesty echad view of God toward a yachid singular view--particularly, by the way, in the context of Maimonides articles of Jewish faith, in large part as a response to the Spanish inquisition. However, both heaven and a plural, triune God are in the Hebrew scriptures. And while a Jewish person who has not trusted yet in Y'shua affirms the monotheist nature of God today, and would say a Messianic Jew is an apostate Jew, they are still a Jew, entitled to a Jewish burial, etc. No Jewish man becomes uncircumcised when He trusts Jesus! And Jesus claimed to be the Jewish Messiah. However much you or another Jewish scholar wants to skirt the issue, there is a Messiah in Judaism and Jews who trust Christ... are trusting Messiah (of course, as you know, Christ = Messiah). Please don't try any sophistry to say that even the word Messiah is of anything but Hebrew derivation.

I hope if we continue to debate the issues we can do so calmly and logically. Thank you.

Here is a dictionary definition of the word "Jew"

Jew |dʒuː|
noun
a member of the people and cultural community whose traditional religion is Judaism and who trace their origins to the ancient Hebrew people of Israel.

Here is a dictionary definition of "Judaism"

Judaism |ˈdʒuːdeɪɪz(ə)m|
noun [ mass noun ]
the monotheistic religion of the Jews.
• the Jews collectively.

So, strictly speaking, any person who "believes in Jesus," i.e. believes that Jesus was a divine figure, is not a Jew, because their traditional religion is not Judaism.

There are, however, people who still call themselves Jewish who are now Christians, (such as Jews for Jesus) and as I already have said, they still consider themselves as "Jews" in the ethnic sense, and this is who you obviously are referring to.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-03-2015, 01:21 PM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2015 02:55 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(11-03-2015 12:35 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 04:28 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "There are several million (estimated) Messianic Jews."

I agree that some Jews today are still waiting their Messiah.

"Many of them do not believe Jesus is God, but they believe He is Messiah."

No. none of them believe Jesus was God. Jews by definition are monotheists. They believe in the one and only God, Yahweh. If any of them believe Jesus was God they are by definition not Jewish.

"but they believe He is Messiah."

NO. For the Jews the kingdom of God promised in scripture never was in a hypothetical heaven, but was to be on earth in the here and now. The real Jewish messiah wasn’t some savior of souls, but was to be a leader of the Jews who was to herald in a glorious age in which Israel triumphed and pagans recognized the glory of Israel’s god, Yahweh. The Jewish messiah was to build the temple, (Ezek. 37:26–28) gather all Jews back to Israel, (Isa. 43:5–6) and, importantly, bring an end to Roman rule. The Jewish messiah was supposed to end all exploitation, corruption, famine, disease, and war. Paul’s fictional Christ had done none of this!

You have not provided the details of a single Jew who thinks your Jeebus was their messiah. Get real.

Mark,

1. No, I haven't provided details of a single Jew who trusts Jesus. I merely mentioned that there are millions of active Messianic Jews, and in Messianic and Gentile congregations. I'm sure you've heard of Jews for Jesus? 100% of their staff and volunteers are Jews for one example, in case you'd like to review specific Jewish commentators and apologists for Jesus online.

2. Yes, I'm well aware that academia rejects the Bible as God's Word--secular academia and not seminaries, anyway. Yes. In typical secular universities, they also promote diversity to the point of marginalizing all evangelicals, and promote "free love" and abortion and...? Your point, please?

3. I'm already aware, as I've already mentioned, that Judaism broke away from the plural majesty echad view of God toward a yachid singular view--particularly, by the way, in the context of Maimonides articles of Jewish faith, in large part as a response to the Spanish inquisition. However, both heaven and a plural, triune God are in the Hebrew scriptures. And while a Jewish person who has not trusted yet in Y'shua affirms the monotheist nature of God today, and would say a Messianic Jew is an apostate Jew, they are still a Jew, entitled to a Jewish burial, etc. No Jewish man becomes uncircumcised when He trusts Jesus! And Jesus claimed to be the Jewish Messiah. However much you or another Jewish scholar wants to skirt the issue, there is a Messiah in Judaism and Jews who trust Christ... are trusting Messiah (of course, as you know, Christ = Messiah). Please don't try any sophistry to say that even the word Messiah is of anything but Hebrew derivation.

I hope if we continue to debate the issues we can do so calmly and logically. Thank you.

I'm hoping that you are going to "calmly and logically" address the following issue...

"For the Jews the kingdom of God promised in scripture never was in a hypothetical heaven, but was to be on earth in the here and now. The real Jewish messiah wasn’t some savior of souls, but was to be a leader of the Jews who was to herald in a glorious age in which Israel triumphed and pagans recognized the glory of Israel’s god, Yahweh. The Jewish messiah was to build the temple, (Ezek. 37:26–28) gather all Jews back to Israel, (Isa. 43:5–6) and, importantly, bring an end to Roman rule. The Jewish messiah was supposed to end all exploitation, corruption, famine, disease, and war. Paul’s fictional Christ...ie your Jesus... had done none of this!"

This is why your Jesus never was the Jewish messiah.

Re.."and promote "free love" and abortion and...?"

You're rambling. Stick to the topic.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-03-2015, 01:54 PM
RE: Reconciling old and new testaments
(11-03-2015 12:35 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 04:28 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "There are several million (estimated) Messianic Jews."

I agree that some Jews today are still waiting their Messiah.

"Many of them do not believe Jesus is God, but they believe He is Messiah."

No. none of them believe Jesus was God. Jews by definition are monotheists. They believe in the one and only God, Yahweh. If any of them believe Jesus was God they are by definition not Jewish.

"but they believe He is Messiah."

NO. For the Jews the kingdom of God promised in scripture never was in a hypothetical heaven, but was to be on earth in the here and now. The real Jewish messiah wasn’t some savior of souls, but was to be a leader of the Jews who was to herald in a glorious age in which Israel triumphed and pagans recognized the glory of Israel’s god, Yahweh. The Jewish messiah was to build the temple, (Ezek. 37:26–28) gather all Jews back to Israel, (Isa. 43:5–6) and, importantly, bring an end to Roman rule. The Jewish messiah was supposed to end all exploitation, corruption, famine, disease, and war. Paul’s fictional Christ had done none of this!

You have not provided the details of a single Jew who thinks your Jeebus was their messiah. Get real.

Mark,

1. No, I haven't provided details of a single Jew who trusts Jesus. I merely mentioned that there are millions of active Messianic Jews, and in Messianic and Gentile congregations. I'm sure you've heard of Jews for Jesus? 100% of their staff and volunteers are Jews for one example, in case you'd like to review specific Jewish commentators and apologists for Jesus online.

2. Yes, I'm well aware that academia rejects the Bible as God's Word--secular academia and not seminaries, anyway. Yes. In typical secular universities, they also promote diversity to the point of marginalizing all evangelicals, and promote "free love" and abortion and...? Your point, please?

3. I'm already aware, as I've already mentioned, that Judaism broke away from the plural majesty echad view of God toward a yachid singular view--particularly, by the way, in the context of Maimonides articles of Jewish faith, in large part as a response to the Spanish inquisition. However, both heaven and a plural, triune God are in the Hebrew scriptures. And while a Jewish person who has not trusted yet in Y'shua affirms the monotheist nature of God today, and would say a Messianic Jew is an apostate Jew, they are still a Jew, entitled to a Jewish burial, etc. No Jewish man becomes uncircumcised when He trusts Jesus! And Jesus claimed to be the Jewish Messiah. However much you or another Jewish scholar wants to skirt the issue, there is a Messiah in Judaism and Jews who trust Christ... are trusting Messiah (of course, as you know, Christ = Messiah). Please don't try any sophistry to say that even the word Messiah is of anything but Hebrew derivation.

I hope if we continue to debate the issues we can do so calmly and logically. Thank you.

Re..."And while a Jewish person who has not trusted yet in Y'shua"

Your tone is patronising in the sense that you are implying that Jewish people are one day going to discover Yeshua. The Jews, both in Jesus' time ( his very family and companions were Jewish) and the Jewish people today, quite sensibly regard Yeshua as a very human person. Some of them may have imagined him to be a capable political leader, however their hopes were dashed when the Romans strung him up on a cross. Don't patronise them by implying they didn't and don't know the real Jesus. Their Jesus is far more real than your mythical son of God, your cartoon character who only appeared in the gospels many decades after Yeshua died.

That is also ironic because Yeshua himself, that is the historical person, if he even existed, was quite obviously a traditional Jew who knew nothing of Christianity. He was well and truly dead by the time Paul appeared on the scene touting his proto-Christian theological nonsense.

Re..."And Jesus claimed to be the Jewish Messiah."

Agreed... If we're going to refer to the gospels.

Re "However much you or another Jewish scholar wants to skirt the issue, there is a Messiah in Judaism and Jews who trust Christ... are trusting Messiah (of course, as you know, Christ = Messiah). Please don't try any sophistry to say that even the word Messiah is of anything but Hebrew derivation."

Where did all this verbal diarrhoea come from? Do you have Alzheimer's disease? Please point out where you think I'm skirting the concept of the Jewish Messiah. You appear to be having a conversation with an imaginary adversary.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Mark Fulton's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: