Red heifer
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
11-05-2016, 08:19 PM
RE: Red heifer
(11-05-2016 08:08 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  OK, so reading Numbers 19 to get the context I am very not seeing a prophecy here. I'm seeing instructions on sacrificing a red heifer. Nothing about end times, just a nasty burnt offering.

Am I missing something?

Yes. The dung part.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-05-2016, 08:26 PM
RE: Red heifer
(11-05-2016 08:14 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Jewish thought teaches that the whole point is figuring out how to do it ourselves. The bible tells a story of a G-d who is increasingly taking a step backwards and letting humanity plot their own course.

Relying on G-d to do things for you is the exact opposite of what Judaism teaches.

Tired of these rampant diseases? Let's make cures and vaccines.
Want to end hunger? Go develop GMOs and create a plan to get food to everyone.
Need to educate the entire world at once? Invent Google!
Tired of natural disasters? Let’s figure out how to control the weather.

According to what I was taught in Jewish studies, humanity can have absolutely everything and anything that we can fathom and are willing to work toward. Maybe some theists want to sit around and pray for everything and expect G-d to just hand them whatever they ask for, but that’s not how it works and it doesn’t say anywhere that that’s how it works. That’s not a theism problem. It’s an idiocy problem.

If we want a red heifer, we’re going to get one one way or another, and how we get it doesn’t negate that it was accomplished fair and square.

And for whatever it’s worth, if Christians want to pay my way to Israel, they’re welcome to do that. I’ll take their money. Smile

Thank you for the explanation, what you are saying makes perfect sense the problem arises with trying to fulfill exact prophecies word for word, or interpreted word for word.

If I told you I could see the future and I knew in one week you would win the lottery and you went out and bought lottery tickets in the days leading up and you did end up winning, did you win because you were always going to win or did you win because you bought all those tickets because you were told you were going to win? If you never buy tickets and you only did this one time to see then it only happened because you were told. Winning the lottery is pretty extraordinary but it's not totally impossible and most people would gladly spend hundreds on tickets if they thought it was a sure thing.

A fulfilled prophecy that took some action on our part is almost impossible to distinguish from an actual foretelling of the future. Would all the Israelites return to their homeland because they wanted to or because they were told it was always going to happen and other theists were helping them along the way? It's very hard to tell so in that sense it's just a circle and it still doesn't prove God or anyone else saw the future or wrote down the prophecy. If it's not divine and simply a wish or a hope for God's chosen people then that's fair enough but a true prophecy would be pretty incredible and could serve as proof of the Bible's authenticity but so far we've got nothing but one failed prediction after another so all that help and still nothing.

[Image: sagansig_zps6vhbql6m.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-05-2016, 08:35 PM
RE: Red heifer
(11-05-2016 08:26 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  A fulfilled prophecy that took some action on our part is almost impossible to distinguish from an actual foretelling of the future. Would all the Israelites return to their homeland because they wanted to or because they were told it was always going to happen and other theists were helping them along the way? It's very hard to tell so in that sense it's just a circle and it still doesn't prove God or anyone else saw the future or wrote down the prophecy. If it's not divine and simply a wish or a hope for God's chosen people then that's fair enough but a true prophecy would be pretty incredible and could serve as proof of the Bible's authenticity but so far we've got nothing but one failed prediction after another so all that help and still nothing.

Most of the people that I know who are going to Israel are not going out of some interest to fulfill a divine plan.

Some definitely are, but most are going because they want to live in a Jewish culture surrounded by like-minded people. We feel a connection to the land, and we want a place to call our own. (While many people are not going because of the prophecy, the coincidence does not go unnoticed, either.)

And it would be nice to have kosher food on every corner and religious holidays that are always off at work.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-05-2016, 08:37 PM
RE: Red heifer
(11-05-2016 08:26 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  If it's not divine and simply a wish or a hope for God's chosen people then that's fair enough but a true prophecy would be pretty incredible and could serve as proof of the Bible's authenticity but so far we've got nothing but one failed prediction after another so all that help and still nothing.

Oh, and what are the failed prophecies? (That's not a loaded question. I have no idea what they are.)

Why does the Bible's authenticity have to be proven? It either is real, or it is not real. What difference would it make in your life if it's real? .... What difference should it make in my life if it's not real?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-05-2016, 08:42 PM
RE: Red heifer
Aliza Wrote:Tired of these rampant diseases? Let's make cures and vaccines.
Want to end hunger? Go develop GMOs and create a plan to get food to everyone.
Need to educate the entire world at once? Invent Google!
Tired of natural disasters? Let’s figure out how to control the weather.

This is what LDS Doctrine teaches, too.
But I have questions.

Does Jewish religion teach that many prophecies are conditional? God would say : if you take this path(My way) these things will happen. If you take another path(your way) these things will happen.
In other words fulfilment of the prophecy depends on choices of God's covenant people.
Do Jewish people make covenants with God or you are considered already to be born in the covenant?
I hope I won't hurt your feelings with these questions.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-05-2016, 08:45 PM
RE: Red heifer
(11-05-2016 08:37 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(11-05-2016 08:26 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  If it's not divine and simply a wish or a hope for God's chosen people then that's fair enough but a true prophecy would be pretty incredible and could serve as proof of the Bible's authenticity but so far we've got nothing but one failed prediction after another so all that help and still nothing.

Oh, and what are the failed prophecies? (That's not a loaded question. I have no idea what they are.)

Why does the Bible's authenticity have to be proven? It either is real, or it is not real. What difference would it make in your life if it's real? .... What difference should it make in my life if it's not real?

It wouldn't make a difference to me at all, unless it was something truly extraordinary like the sun turning red and Xians disappearing in front of me but by then the end times have started so it would be too late. Many Xians like to use the prophecies as a good reason to believe in the Bible, since none of the predictions have come true yet there's still no reason to believe it's not a work of fiction.

I like to think I'm open minded enough to believe the Bible was true but even then I'd rather not go back all over again and read it and figure out what's true, what's an allegory, what's symbolic, etc., even a fulfilled prophecy would have to be truly divine, not man made in any way for me to do that and I don't see that happening so even a sorta fulfilled prediction won't be good enough and wont' change my life in any way.

[Image: sagansig_zps6vhbql6m.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-05-2016, 08:59 PM
RE: Red heifer
(11-05-2016 08:14 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Tired of natural disasters? Let’s figure out how to control the weather.

I'd be content if the over-evolved chimps would simply stop developping real estate in areas that they've poetically dubbed "The Ring of Fire" and "Tornado Alley". Sounds like they might be insurance risks.

Quote:If we want a red heifer, we’re going to get one one way or another, and how we get it doesn’t negate that it was accomplished fair and square.

GMO, though a decent breeding program would have accomplished it long ago if anybody had put in the effort.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-05-2016, 09:03 PM
RE: Red heifer
(11-05-2016 08:37 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Oh, and what are the failed prophecies? (That's not a loaded question. I have no idea what they are.)

Here's a list:
SAB: Prophecy


(11-05-2016 08:37 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Why does the Bible's authenticity have to be proven? It either is real, or it is not real. What difference would it make in your life if it's real? .... What difference should it make in my life if it's not real?

It is not a question of the bible itself. Conservative christians in the US are using that book to make laws and force their viewpoints on everyone else. Their justification is that it is the infallible, inerrant word of god.

Since that is not the case, the Fundamentalists have no justification for their illegal and immoral actions.

It is my understanding that the Jewish religion teaches that the way to god is through the bible. (Please correct me if I am wrong.)

If the bible is not true then that would leave you with a set of customs and restrictions that are valuable only as cultural traditions.

Is that lifestyle is acceptable to you?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-05-2016, 09:08 PM
RE: Red heifer
(11-05-2016 08:42 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Aliza Wrote:Tired of these rampant diseases? Let's make cures and vaccines.
Want to end hunger? Go develop GMOs and create a plan to get food to everyone.
Need to educate the entire world at once? Invent Google!
Tired of natural disasters? Let’s figure out how to control the weather.

This is what LDS Doctrine teaches, too.
But I have questions.

Does Jewish religion teach that many prophecies are conditional? God would say : if you take this path(My way) these things will happen. If you take another path(your way) these things will happen.
In other words fulfilment of the prophecy depends on choices of God's covenant people.
Do Jewish people make covenants with God or you are considered already to be born in the covenant?
I hope I won't hurt your feelings with these questions.

As much as I disagree with LDS doctrine, I have never denied that Mormons seek out higher educations and contribute to the world in meaningful ways.

The Jewish people are a group, and individuals are born into the group. The commandments must be filled as a group, not necessarily on an individual basis. <-- Not sure if that answers your last question or not.

I think the best way to describe the covenant is to say that the Jews and G-d entered into a contract; one that cannot be cancelled. There are terms for the contract and clauses built in the event that the Jews break the contract. Every breach of contract has a ramification attached to it, but the contract itself cannot be broken.

According to my understanding, as part of the deal, G-d agrees to keep the Jewish people as a distinct nation and give them the messiah before the year 6,000. The idea is to hit a home run, but if we keep striking out, the bases get walked.

In the Gregorian calendar, this means that by sundown, September 30, 2239, if we don’t have the messiah, then Judaism is a load of crap. –I’m sure they’ll be a handful of loyalists who refuse to give up, but if I can figure out how to live that long, I will give up after that date.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-05-2016, 09:11 PM
RE: Red heifer
(11-05-2016 08:59 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(11-05-2016 08:14 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Tired of natural disasters? Let’s figure out how to control the weather.

I'd be content if the over-evolved chimps would simply stop developping real estate in areas that they've poetically dubbed "The Ring of Fire" and "Tornado Alley". Sounds like they might be insurance risks.

Quote:If we want a red heifer, we’re going to get one one way or another, and how we get it doesn’t negate that it was accomplished fair and square.

GMO, though a decent breeding program would have accomplished it long ago if anybody had put in the effort.

It's all ultimately on us, though, isn't it? Yes
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Aliza's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: