Refute this former atheist...
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08-09-2011, 08:26 PM
 
RE: Refute this former atheist...
They've already been thoroughly taken apart by others, but I still feel a need to add my own opinion. I suggest that in the future you don't rely on other people to do this kind of thinking for you, subzero. It's no better than what a religious person does, actually it's exactly the same thing that most of them do and it's why many people are religious and/or ignorant of reality - they don't think for themselves. You'd be much better off reading and evaluating these arguments yourself, and then coming to your own conclusions. Ask for help, get other peoples' opinions, discuss them with other people, but don't simply say "A Christian gave me these arguments, can you guys tell me how to respond to them?"

As for the arguments made, they require some discussion with the person making them. The person who sent you this most likely hasn't put much time or thought into evaluating them before giving you this list, and if you don't address that problem somehow they may just be content to throw a new link at you every time you dismantle the latest article they've given.

1. The design argument.

This is a simple appeal to intuition and emotion. The universe, earth, etc. look designed and it's beyond easy to come up with some ridiculous probabilities to support the assertion that we couldn't exist without a "designer."

The problem is that this argument is too vague to be useful. It's unfalsifiable. Have the person making it explain it in a way that allows its truth or validity to be determined, as it is there's no point trying to argue over whether it's true or not. It's like arguing over whether or not poker is a sport without defining the word sport.

2. Kalam, or at least something similar.

This argument makes a number of assumptions that it has no reason to make. Read the argument, identify the assumptions that you don't consider justified, and ask for justification.

3. Again, appealing to intuition.

The fact that the universe is orderly means nothing other than it's orderly. You can take any fact or observation for which you are unaware of the cause and ask "Why is this true?" To then answer "GODDIDIT!!!" is just plain stupid. Just like number 1, the person making it forgot to show their work. The person making this must justify how they got from this fact to the existence of god.

4. Complete ignorance of science.

The person making this needs to understand how evolution works. They're relying on ignorance and, yet again, their intuition. It just seems to make sense, therefore it must be true!

5. Laughable. Just laughable. A skeptical child could take this apart.

This claim is inconsistent with reality. Atheists exist. If the person making this argument wants to insist that EVERYONE actually believes in god and that those who say they don't are just lying have gone off the deep end. Chances are that they'll just make excuses for this, but they won't allow the idea to be tested in any way.

6. Too many unsupported claims. This requires establishing a number of things, such as the Bible's (and especially the Gospels') historical accuracy. If they want to make this argument, they've got a lot of work to do.

Don't simply repeat what someone here has told you. I've suggested how to resolve some of these claims and given some of my opinions, but you need to use your own mind to work this out. And the same goes for the people you're having this debate with, they shouldn't just link to articles containing arguments. They need to read the arguments themselves, understand them, and put them in their own words. If they can't do that then it's doubtful they even understand the claim being made, just that it states confidently "God exists!" For too many people, the fact that it agrees with their opinion is good enough. Don't be one of those people, and if they won't think for themselves don't waste your time on them.
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10-09-2011, 07:45 PM
RE: Refute this former atheist...
There's one big fact that Christians cannot deny, and that is that only roughly 25% of the World's population are Christians. It's even taken 2000 years to capture such a small percentage of human hearts and minds.

If Christianity was so good, or if their god was real, then their % would surely be greater?

75% of the World's population is a hefty majority to pit your belief against!

"To think of what the world has suffered from superstition, from religion, from the worship of beast and stone and god, is
almost enough to make one insane."

Robert G. Ingersoll
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10-09-2011, 10:17 PM
RE: Refute this former atheist...
(10-09-2011 07:45 PM)Organon Wrote:  There's one big fact that Christians cannot deny, and that is that only roughly 25% of the World's population are Christians. It's even taken 2000 years to capture such a small percentage of human hearts and minds.

If Christianity was so good, or if their god was real, then their % would surely be greater?

75% of the World's population is a hefty majority to pit your belief against!

According to some studies done in the United Kingdom, ("Religion in the United Kingdom: Diversity, Trends and Decline" by Vexen Crabtree (2007)) even though 71.1% of the people say they are christian, it shows that many of these people don't think the virgin birth is true, don't believe in miracles, that Jesus was the son of god, and even in a personal god, yet because they were brought up to label themselves 'christian' they still think of themselves as christian. For many its just a cultural thing.
British Social Attitudes Survey, 2009
50.7% of the British public say they are not religious.
66% have no connection with any religion or church.
Only 18% say they are a practicing member of an organized religion

I want for myself what I want for every women, absolute equality. Agnes Macphail
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11-09-2011, 07:15 PM
RE: Refute this former atheist...
(08-09-2011 08:26 PM)Zach Wrote:  Don't simply repeat what someone here has told you. I've suggested how to resolve some of these claims and given some of my opinions, but you need to use your own mind to work this out. And the same goes for the people you're having this debate with, they shouldn't just link to articles containing arguments. They need to read the arguments themselves, understand them, and put them in their own words. If they can't do that then it's doubtful they even understand the claim being made, just that it states confidently "God exists!" For too many people, the fact that it agrees with their opinion is good enough. Don't be one of those people, and if they won't think for themselves don't waste your time on them.

Well said!

There's enough info around on the 'Net to research anything that is required regarding the facts of Christianity. Its structured manufacture by the Romans, the origins of its invented god and the ramblings of Bronze Age donkey nomads in its holy book are all available for anyone with the time to read it.

Fascinating stuff that will enable someone to refute anything that a Christian may bring up in discussion.

Personally, I can no longer be bothered debating with Christians. They are generally not interested in the real truth about their religion and their god.

"To think of what the world has suffered from superstition, from religion, from the worship of beast and stone and god, is
almost enough to make one insane."

Robert G. Ingersoll
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12-09-2011, 05:14 AM
RE: Refute this former atheist...
Well said Orangon, that us precisely why I only come to this forum and I don't go to any Christian websites for discussion. If a Christian wants to stay in their own bubble than who am I to pop it for them?

I believe in getting involved in the fight to stop Dominionism from taking America over, and I am all about helping other people who have accepted that they are nonbelievers get information; but have no desire to go evangelizing in the name of Atheism.

“There is no sin except stupidity.” Oscar Wilde
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12-09-2011, 12:05 PM
RE: Refute this former atheist...
The only problem is that while there is a lot of good information out there, there is also a lot of rubbish. And people seem to flock to the bullshit like flies on...well...bullshit.

Evolve
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23-09-2011, 08:06 AM
 
RE: Refute this former atheist...
"1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today."


See my hellbound rant about Intelligent Designer in the other forum here.

But God, who fumbled around and allowed Apples to be eaten, condemned all to hell and who's only solution to fix things is to go all out Nuclear...THAT's the mark of an Intelligent Designer?

We have to agree that he's intelligent first before we can call him an Intelligent Designer. Right now, if he exists, he's just some half witted intern in the chemistry lab.

If the only way he can solve the rubix cube of saving all his creations is to literally KILL his own son...if THATS IT...then how can this same guy be bothered with the Complexity of Planets and other reeeeaaaally tricky things?

The argument with anyone FOR ID should be started with the definition of Intelligence and use his own book to demonstrate how Intelligent he really is....(or isn't).
D
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23-09-2011, 04:19 PM (This post was last modified: 23-09-2011 04:30 PM by mysticjbyrd.)
RE: Refute this former atheist...
(01-09-2011 11:04 AM)subzero0137 Wrote:  So I've been debating a bunch of creationists, when one of them posted this link: http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

It's not too long, so hopefully a detailed refutation of this article won't be a problem for the smart people here. Thanks in advance! Big Grin

Sounds like fun...
1) There are countless # of planets, that is proof of nothing.
Water exists everywhere in the universe, even on asteroids.
The mechanics of the eye are well understood, and the evolution of the eye is very well documented. And many animals still use various steps in the evolution of our eyes. Our eye is actually horribly "designed" but it works good enough.
Our brain is insanely complex, but just because we dont understand everything does not mean there is a god. A lack of understanding is the basis of belief in god from the beginning. This is nothing new.

2) I actually created a counter argument to this one a few years back.

One cannot create an entity and occupy space inside of it at the same time.
If God created the universe, then he could not have occupied space in said universe.
Therefore God did not create the universe.
If god is defined as the creator of the "heavens and the earth" AKA the universe, then by definition he does not exist.

Basically, if god created the universe... Then where was he standing when he did it? Your god could not have created the universe. It is simply not logical, and if YOUR god did not create the universe then who did? A pre-god god? Well where was he standing? An alternate dimension? Well who created that? And so on for infinity.

3) Recent theoretical physics tells us that we live in a Multics-verse, an infinite # of universes. It stands to reason that there would be universes with the proper balance of forces to maintain structure.

4) I do not really understand this one. How is the existence of DNA evidence of god? Does he know of another way life can be created where cells have no direction.

5) Lots of people convert to a religion after being non-religious, but that is hardly proof of the existence of god. Just the amazing appeal to believe in an imaginary friend and eternal happiness.

6) The story of jesus is a complete ripoff of countless other stories passing around the area for hundreds of years prior. The Egyptian story of Horus is near identical, and about 1000 years earlier.

Another thing to consider is that false prophets were also common during this time, and there are thorough records of many of them. Yet, the name Jesus Christ of Naz isnt among any of them.

These two facts combined and its fairly obvious that he never actually existed, or the very least he was a con man.
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