Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
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22-01-2014, 11:00 AM
RE: Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
(20-01-2014 09:06 PM)anidominus Wrote:  The Biblical Account of Creation
A Young Earth
Genesis 1:16: The fault with your logic here is that you hold God to the physics he created. This is a mistake Atheist often make because by default they do not believe God exists. Therefore, they ignore his power when reading the bible which results in what Atheist see as contradictions when no such contradiction exits.

Begging the question = assuming the conclusion of an argument while making the argument. It is circular reasoning, and is a logical fallacy. You assume that God created physics, and chide us for holding him to it. But the question of whether God created physics -- or anything else, for that matter -- is the issue being discussed. You can't declare by fiat that God created physics and therefore we are wrong to hold him to it, when the question of whether God had anything to do with it is the very matter being discussed! This is a mistake that Christians often make because they believe God exists. Therefore, they attribute power to him when reading critiques of the Bible which results in what Christians see as Intelligent Design when no such intelligent design exists.

Quote:The Order of Creation
You could just as easily classify this as artistic license. The first chapter dealt with the actual creation of the planet. The 2nd chapter refocuses the reader and deals with the creation of man. The people who wrote the bible didn’t write it to impress your intellect or anyone else’s.

You could classify it as artistic license. Or you could take the Bible at its word. It's funny how we get criticized for taking the Bible at its word, when this is exactly what Christians want us to do. Except when reading Genesis. "The people who wrote the Bible didn't write it to impress your intellect or anyone else's." Mission accomplished: my intellect is not impressed.

Quote:Other Issues in the Garden
Genesis 1:31 vs Genesis 6:5-6
God gave us the ability to make choices. Before a choice is made, there is nothing for God to know but he does know the outcome of every choice. How? Much like a programmer doesn’t know what buttons you’re going to push or when, it doesn’t matter, because the programmer already has programmed the response to whatever you do. Nor could you ever work outside the boundaries the programmer gives you.

This is a straw man fallacy. No atheist sees a contradiction between those two verses in context. We recognize the change in circumstances in the contexts of those two passages. It's easy to knock down someone else's argument when you're misrepresenting it.

Quote:Genesis 2:3
Resting from work and requiring rest is two different things.
The tree of Good and Evil being in the midst was no more a temptation than a child wearing a bikini on a beach is a temptation for you to have sex with them. Adam and Eve understood Gods one and only law so there was no excuse for them to eat it.

You're falsely assuming that God "resting" is the only example of the anthropomorphism of God in the book of Genesis and the Pentateuch. The truth is that if you take away the preconceived notion of God as a transcendent spirit being (which is nowhere even hinted at in Genesis), you get a God who is quite "human" looking. He makes man in his image (we look like Him). He walks in the garden. He has to ask Adam where he is. He wrestles with Jacob. He lets Moses see His back but not His face. God doesn't become a transcendent invisible spirit until much, much later in the development of Judaism.

As for the presence of the tree, the child in the bikini is a false analogy. The loaded gun is a very good analogy. Not just because I say so, but because the facts and circumstances warrant the comparison. A child in a bikini is not a temptation to mentally well-adjusted people. Angelina Jolie taking off a bikini is a temptation, but that wasn't the analogy you presented. Nonetheless, the harm of an unsupervised loaded gun in the presence of a child is directly analogous to the harm of the tree of knowledge in the garden with a couple of innocent, naive people who have been told "don't eat from that." For God not to realize what a temptation that would be reflects a profound lack of understanding of human nature, which, attributed to Him, is inconsistent with the concept that He designed us int he first place.

Bottom like is that Adam and Eve and the tree and the talking snake... as history, it is a profoundly stupid story. It never happened.

I may or may not continue with other points made in the OP. This post is already long enough as it is.
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22-01-2014, 03:39 PM
RE: Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
(22-01-2014 02:08 AM)Kestrel Wrote:  
(21-01-2014 11:38 PM)anidominus Wrote:  Did you even read your own post?
Do you believe that all scripture is given by inspiration of god?
There is nothing unreasonable about the question. You are all about biblical answers according to this thread of yours.
The answer I'm looking for, is simply yes or no.

The question you asked this time vs the last time is quite different.

The question can not be answered with a straight yes or no answer because there are context to consider.

When Paul wrote that to Timothy the books of the new testament did not exists. They were simply a collection of letters from a person to another person or group. So Paul had something he was referring to as scripture but Paul did not have a Bible.

With that being said, we did create the bible and what is now called the New Testament is refereed to as scripture an inspired work of God. This title is given simply because the people who put the books together after much prayer and debate believe these books were the outcome that God wanted.

Now, just because scripture is inspired by God does not mean everything in it is true or should be followed. You have to understand the context. Many things are purely there for historical context or teach a lesson. Much like the story of crying wolf. We read the story and we understand that the story is about not alarming people unnecessarily but no one would read the story and suggest because the boy cried wolf its fine to call wolf for any reason. The Bible works the same way. There is History, Poems, Lamentations, Observations, Wise Sayings, God's Commands, and many other things in scripture.

Scripture is for the men of God. Men of God study scripture and follow its teachings to better himself. But much like Paul was to teach Christianity to none-Jewish people and used scripture and his own teachings, from a guy who's name I forgot, we are to do the same thing. Jesus said to go out and share the Good News. Some people will be receptive to the message and others will not. Some people may never believe in Jesus but they may be inspired to accept his teachings.

In one of the books of the bible I think its in I John. Paul defines what Love is. However, his goal at that time was not to give a complete definition of Love. He was only saying Love is those things as Love includes those things like patience, being slow to anger etc.

Likewise to say that scripture is for the man of God isn't to say that people who aren't men of God can not read it and obtain understanding. However, when men have made it in their heart to be against God like so many on these forums and you don't read scripture to find out about God but instead read it to find fault, you will be utterly confused and its meaning will be "hidden" or not known to you.
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22-01-2014, 03:42 PM
RE: Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
(22-01-2014 02:38 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  
(21-01-2014 11:45 PM)anidominus Wrote:  If you don't want to debunk "assertions" multiple time then don't respond to the "assertions". Pass it by. I don't care if you respond or not, but if you are going to respond deal with what I said. that's all I ask.

Regardless if the grammar is correct or not, you atheist seem to be hard of understanding the basic principle of responding in a forum.

The implication of my post is that you should maybe break your ideas down, so that we may tackle them one at a time as opposed to writing your memoirs. That way myself and many others will feel more inclined to help you out by sharing our perspective and responding to your points.

Look at it from our point of view. You've joined an atheist forum (you've come to us, not us to you) posted a gattling gun diatribe of old debunked assertions all at once in the usual 'checkmate atheists' fashion, it's old and rude. Then you demand we communicate in the same incoherent way.

Like I said, I am very tolerant of people, I often like to give people a chance to chill out a bit and see if there's any merit in their position so instead of informing me I don't know how to use a forum, you'd do well to check your own communication skills and review your manners. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone Big Grin

What exactly are you talking about? There was an entire section of the site pointing out all of the "contradictions" in the bible. I simply took that list and responded to each "contradiction" one by one. It was me answering questions your website posed.
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22-01-2014, 03:59 PM
RE: Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
(22-01-2014 11:00 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  
(20-01-2014 09:06 PM)anidominus Wrote:  The Biblical Account of Creation
A Young Earth
Genesis 1:16: The fault with your logic here is that you hold God to the physics he created. This is a mistake Atheist often make because by default they do not believe God exists. Therefore, they ignore his power when reading the bible which results in what Atheist see as contradictions when no such contradiction exits.

Begging the question = assuming the conclusion of an argument while making the argument. It is circular reasoning, and is a logical fallacy. You assume that God created physics, and chide us for holding him to it. But the question of whether God created physics -- or anything else, for that matter -- is the issue being discussed. You can't declare by fiat that God created physics and therefore we are wrong to hold him to it, when the question of whether God had anything to do with it is the very matter being discussed! This is a mistake that Christians often make because they believe God exists. Therefore, they attribute power to him when reading critiques of the Bible which results in what Christians see as Intelligent Design when no such intelligent design exists.

Quote:The Order of Creation
You could just as easily classify this as artistic license. The first chapter dealt with the actual creation of the planet. The 2nd chapter refocuses the reader and deals with the creation of man. The people who wrote the bible didn’t write it to impress your intellect or anyone else’s.

You could classify it as artistic license. Or you could take the Bible at its word. It's funny how we get criticized for taking the Bible at its word, when this is exactly what Christians want us to do. Except when reading Genesis. "The people who wrote the Bible didn't write it to impress your intellect or anyone else's." Mission accomplished: my intellect is not impressed.

Quote:Other Issues in the Garden
Genesis 1:31 vs Genesis 6:5-6
God gave us the ability to make choices. Before a choice is made, there is nothing for God to know but he does know the outcome of every choice. How? Much like a programmer doesn’t know what buttons you’re going to push or when, it doesn’t matter, because the programmer already has programmed the response to whatever you do. Nor could you ever work outside the boundaries the programmer gives you.

This is a straw man fallacy. No atheist sees a contradiction between those two verses in context. We recognize the change in circumstances in the contexts of those two passages. It's easy to knock down someone else's argument when you're misrepresenting it.

Quote:Genesis 2:3
Resting from work and requiring rest is two different things.
The tree of Good and Evil being in the midst was no more a temptation than a child wearing a bikini on a beach is a temptation for you to have sex with them. Adam and Eve understood Gods one and only law so there was no excuse for them to eat it.

You're falsely assuming that God "resting" is the only example of the anthropomorphism of God in the book of Genesis and the Pentateuch. The truth is that if you take away the preconceived notion of God as a transcendent spirit being (which is nowhere even hinted at in Genesis), you get a God who is quite "human" looking. He makes man in his image (we look like Him). He walks in the garden. He has to ask Adam where he is. He wrestles with Jacob. He lets Moses see His back but not His face. God doesn't become a transcendent invisible spirit until much, much later in the development of Judaism.

As for the presence of the tree, the child in the bikini is a false analogy. The loaded gun is a very good analogy. Not just because I say so, but because the facts and circumstances warrant the comparison. A child in a bikini is not a temptation to mentally well-adjusted people. Angelina Jolie taking off a bikini is a temptation, but that wasn't the analogy you presented. Nonetheless, the harm of an unsupervised loaded gun in the presence of a child is directly analogous to the harm of the tree of knowledge in the garden with a couple of innocent, naive people who have been told "don't eat from that." For God not to realize what a temptation that would be reflects a profound lack of understanding of human nature, which, attributed to Him, is inconsistent with the concept that He designed us int he first place.

Bottom like is that Adam and Eve and the tree and the talking snake... as history, it is a profoundly stupid story. It never happened.

I may or may not continue with other points made in the OP. This post is already long enough as it is.

The Biblical Account of Creation
Then what's the point of any discussion at all? If you want to hide behind "logically fallacy" be my guess.

The Order of Creation
And the sillyness continues. Cultures write things and report things in diffrent ways. Not every culture is going to write somethign in a way that you find reasonable.

Other Issues in the Garden
Genesis 1:31 vs Genesis 6:5-6
I didn't mis represent anything. He was not pleased because of what man had done.

Genesis 2:3
My anagly works just fine. Adman Eve were very well adjusted. God would not have told them to avoid a tree and then not given them the comprehension of what that means.
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22-01-2014, 04:21 PM (This post was last modified: 22-01-2014 04:27 PM by Vosur.)
RE: Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
(22-01-2014 03:42 PM)anidominus Wrote:  What exactly are you talking about? There was an entire section of the site pointing out all of the "contradictions" in the bible. I simply took that list and responded to each "contradiction" one by one. It was me answering questions your website posed.
The implied assertion that these things aren't actually contradictions is demonstrably unwarranted since you are incapable of resolving many of them by your own admittance.

Examples:

Where Did Jesus Meet Simon, Peter, and Andrew?
The important thing here is that they met. The actual circumstance around the meeting doesn’t matter.

Did Jesus Allow His Disciples to Carry a Staff?
I don’t know and I don’t care. Luke's gospel was research, its possible he had conflicting information and wrote down what was the most likely.

Did the Fig Tree That Jesus Cursed Wither Immediately or Overnight?
Wow, I don’t think doctors pull this many teeth. The fig tree weathered at the command of “A Man” and your concern is overnight vs immediately?

What color Robe Was Jesus Given?
I’m trying my best to answer these but your questions get more boring by the minute. Little things like this really do not matter.

Who Carried Jesus’ Cross?
I guess John didn’t give a flying you know what who carried it and neither do it. ROTFL.

What Were Jesus’ Last Words on the Cross?
Maybe he said all of them. LOL

How Did Judas Die?
People don’t just fall down and their intestines spill out. Judas hang himself and either he hanged in self in such a way his intestines falling out was possible or something super natural happened. In either case, both books agree he died.

And so on and so forth.

If you could be so kind as to offer us something other than your unsubstantiated and subjective interpretation of the Biblical accounts, that would be great.

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22-01-2014, 04:40 PM
RE: Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
(20-01-2014 09:06 PM)anidominus Wrote:  You can defiantly find contradictions when you don’t bother to do the research to learn about the bible itself. When I find these so called contradiction lists it’s all the same. Atheists claiming their on self-worth and righteousness not even bothering to try to understand what is written.

You’re so called logic and reason deceives you. I wonder how many people have spent countless hours researching your contradictions only for you to blow it off as naïve. Your excuses are gone. You will not find your answers in logic and reason you may only find it through faith. When you discover the faith, true logic and reason will soon follow and all these so called contradictions will do what they supposed to do. Cause you to want to study the bible that much more.

Holy crap - you cannot be serious! Jumping in and accusing all the members on these forums of being decieved and not doing our research. You got fucking nerve and that is all the credit you get from me. You framed every thing you said in the OP from your presumed position of faith (yeah like that is something to boast about), without providing anything useful in substantiating your points. The blinders are thick and sturdy on this one!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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22-01-2014, 04:58 PM
RE: Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
anidominus Wrote:The question can not be answered with a straight yes or no answer because there are context to consider.
You're an equivocating buffoon.
You need to allude to some sort of context based position, because to do otherwise, takes you out of it.

anidominus Wrote:... we did create the bible and what is now called the New Testament is refereed to as scripture an inspired work of God.
You're an egomaniac. "we" LMAO.
You're a real Pharisee in training, slick.

It says, "ALL scripture.

anidominus Wrote:...Now, just because scripture is inspired by God does not mean everything in it is true or should be followed.
Spoken like a true Sadducee.

So who is to be the arbiter of what is true and should be followed? You? Your Pharisee teachers? Your gerbil?

anidominus Wrote:Scripture is for the men of God. Men of God study scripture and follow its teachings to better himself.
It's "man" of God, you toothless viper.
Besides, what do you know about bettering yourself? Is the result thus far, what we have all been privileged to witness from you, to date?
What could you have possibly been like before you became a Pharisee? Ya must have been a real gem. Rolleyes

anidominus Wrote:... from a guy who's name I forgot, ...
...In one of the books of the bible I think its in I John...
"You think.."? When exactly does that kick in?
Clearly it's safe to say you're not yet scholarly material.

anidominus Wrote:However, when men have made it in their heart to be against God like so many on these forums and you don't read scripture to find out about God but instead read it to find fault, you will be utterly confused and its meaning will be "hidden" or not known to you.
You are a prime example. All you've "found out" is how to make yourself feel important in an indifferent world and claim support from a god you find convenient.

You believe in a god who created the universe and all we see, and who dwell in it, but somehow, this "god" just can't keep a book intact without your self-endowed insight and ability to discern truth.

So has it ever been with the religious.
Nothing new here. Certainly nothing original. Drinking Beverage

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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22-01-2014, 05:06 PM
RE: Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
(22-01-2014 04:58 PM)Kestrel Wrote:  
anidominus Wrote:The question can not be answered with a straight yes or no answer because there are context to consider.
You're an equivocating buffoon.
You need to allude to some sort of context based position, because to do otherwise, takes you out of it.

anidominus Wrote:... we did create the bible and what is now called the New Testament is refereed to as scripture an inspired work of God.
You're an egomaniac. "we" LMAO.
You're a real Pharisee in training, slick.

It says, "ALL scripture.

anidominus Wrote:...Now, just because scripture is inspired by God does not mean everything in it is true or should be followed.
Spoken like a true Sadducee.

So who is to be the arbiter of what is true and should be followed? You? Your Pharisee teachers? Your gerbil?

anidominus Wrote:Scripture is for the men of God. Men of God study scripture and follow its teachings to better himself.
It's "man" of God, you toothless viper.
Besides, what do you know about bettering yourself? Is the result thus far, what we have all been privileged to witness from you, to date?
What could you have possibly been like before you became a Pharisee? Ya must have been a real gem. Rolleyes

anidominus Wrote:... from a guy who's name I forgot, ...
...In one of the books of the bible I think its in I John...
"You think.."? When exactly does that kick in?
Clearly it's safe to say you're not yet scholarly material.

anidominus Wrote:However, when men have made it in their heart to be against God like so many on these forums and you don't read scripture to find out about God but instead read it to find fault, you will be utterly confused and its meaning will be "hidden" or not known to you.
You are a prime example. All you've "found out" is how to make yourself feel important in an indifferent world and claim support from a god you find convenient.

You believe in a god who created the universe and all we see, and who dwell in it, but somehow, this "god" just can't keep a book intact without your self-endowed insight and ability to discern truth.

So has it ever been with the religious.
Nothing new here. Certainly nothing original. Drinking Beverage

As someone who claims to be theist, I would certainly like to see your rationale for your belief. You attack like an atheist, and was perhaps, appropriately vague when I asked for your perspective and justification in the "3 questions for atheists" thread.

If you have a link outlining your perspective that will do just fine.
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22-01-2014, 05:28 PM
RE: Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
A few days ago a jaxx asked me to explain my beliefs.
I'll use this thread to answer.

jaxx,
I believe in a risen and living Christ.
I believe that the bible is the inspired word of God and use it in conjunction with my life experiences in order to grow in my belief.

I find no biblical position of an eternal punishment for anyone.

I do not believe in free will as the term is commonly bandied about.

I reject that the God I believe in, created man to simply be worshipped by man.

I believe that Gods ways are not mans ways and must defer to that.

I do not believe nor could I, given my previous statement, that I am to defend God.

I do not believe that I am to help God do anything.

I believe that faith is not a choice as I certainly didn't ask for it.

I believe that I am correct in using the bible as my source of information for the following primary reasons.
(All of which, I realized after the fact.)
1:The bible declares that faith is not a choice. A declaration that my own experience validates.
2:Understanding, while encouraged by scripture, is not a requirement in order to become a believer. ( To me, this is no small thing.)
3: No eternal punishment or destruction for any person.
4: The extraordinary claim that the bible makes in claiming the author. Being God himself.
5: While scripture certainly references believers as a group, it speaks to the individual believer.

As I have never met the man, I do not claim the very creepy position of having a personal relationship with Jesus.

I have never heard "voices" nor had feelings that were not my own.

I am nondenominational.
Many of my fellow believers have referred to me as a cultist. Not a very good one it seems, since it more and more appears that I am a cult of one. Although I don't truly believe that I am the only one who believes in the fashion that I do.

The nonbeliever is not my opposite.
The ego based believer, is.

Results of my belief toward others are:
No "spiritual" judgements toward those who do not believe.

Abundance of spiritual judgement towards who claim christianity as their understanding.

My belief costs no one a thing. Not monetarily, politically, emotionally, physically.

My belief is not dependent upon the approval or disapproval of another human being.

----------------------------------------------
anidominus, I don't give a damn if you agree with anything I have to say.
But I will tell you this;
Regardless of one's beliefs, one will stagnate if they spend more energy arguing what they think they are right about, than looking for what they are wrong about.

I hold no hope that this has any real meaning for you at this time.
In the future perhaps.

You didn't create this thread to dispute the bible. You did it because your ego drove you to it.
Nothing to do with God. It's all about you. And that makes it worthless.

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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22-01-2014, 05:29 PM
RE: Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
(22-01-2014 05:06 PM)Brownshirt Wrote:  If you have a link outlining your perspective that will do just fine.
good timing.

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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