Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
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23-01-2014, 04:15 AM
RE: Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
Brownshirt Wrote:If find it intriguing that you're particularly scathing of people based on their beliefs systems, yet hold some fairly contentious views and come to an atheists forum to do so.
It was discussions with non believers that were the catalyst of re-evaluating my views. Though I never called people stupid like our christian friend in this thread, I do confess sharing his mindset for a mercifully brief time.

Besides, I get booted off christian boards so fast, it would make any atheist envious.
Brownshirt Wrote:...what makes you believe that he rose for example.
My "best" answer is that God does. I have obviously seen no evidence that a person can be resurrected after 3 days. I have no intellectual reasoning for it.

Brownshirt Wrote:Do you believe in inerrancy, and how do you account that the bible was written many years after Jesus died? Do you think human fallibility of whoever wrote Mark, Matthew Luke and John plays a part in the inspired word of god?
Since I believe that god is the author, I am locked into a position that offers no movement. Lest I fall back into a self-centered belief. The history of the bible and when it's various parts were written, compiled and "endorsed" have become a validation for me. Since I am concerned with what I feel are Gods expectations of the individual believer in the here and now, my focus is on that primarily. That's not to say the rest of the book is less important. When it comes to "contradictions", I have no problem answering, " I don't know." What I do know however, is that no where in the book is the believer charged with using the book toward the non believer as evidence or proof of anything.

Brownshirt Wrote:You would need to be a little bit more specific. If you're promoting a non-deterministic view, so man still has 'free will' but by a different concept then I'd be interested to hear it.
I will gladly address this and your other questions regarding my understanding and application of free will, in a following more complete post.
Brownshirt Wrote:I claim that god is writing this sentence, it doesn't make it so.
I agree.
Brownshirt Wrote:Good to hear what you believe. I'm so bored of people feeling that don't have to rationalise what they believe, as if they're somehow absolved from it despite still playing the game. Everyone must learn to justify their position.
Agreed.
I as a believer am charged to make a good defense to everyone that asks a reason for my belief. Nowhere am I tasked with convincing anyone of anything.
Now what constitutes "good", is obviously determined by the hearer.
Who can argue that most believers make their "defense" an offense?
I make no claim against the nonbeliever. There are no warnings or threats nor dire consequence.
Again, my belief costs my fellow human beings nothing. The fair minded atheist will say, "eh. I don't believe in what you do." And it is left at that.

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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23-01-2014, 05:07 AM
RE: Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
(23-01-2014 04:15 AM)Kestrel Wrote:  Again, my belief costs my fellow human beings nothing. The fair minded atheist will say, "eh. I don't believe in what you do." And it is left at that.

One of these days, I'm going to get to the bottom of why the Calvinists (you said you were one earlier, right?) are the most agreeable theists on the forums. That being said, I still reserve the right to have further objections to your actions if I think they can lead to unnecessary harm of your fellow sentient creatures, should that time ever occur. Until then, believe what you want until it starts adversely affecting other people. Thumbsup

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24-01-2014, 04:13 AM
RE: Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
Brownshirt Wrote:You would need to be a little bit more specific. If you're promoting a non-deterministic view, so man still has 'free will' but by a different concept then I'd be interested to hear it.
I'll do my best to condense my views on free will, as I'm sure there are more threads on the topic than people care to count.

I equate the experience or feeling of faith with attraction. That is to say, very similar to the fact that we don't have a choice in the people we find attractive.
I became attracted to faith, in so much that I became open to the idea of there being a larger purpose to my existence. My experience was a gradual one. I liken it to the slow turning of a dial as opposed to the trip of a switch.
When you ask:
Brownshirt Wrote:SO how does this align with your free-will position?
...To my statement that faith is not a choice, in this context, it is an attraction to something a feeling of something larger and more purposeful than I had reason to believe. In discussions, faith is often confused and used as understanding. I don't see it this way. Faith is a feeling. An attraction. As we cannot force ourselves to be genuinely attracted to a person, nor can an individual force themselves to be attracted to that which they have no evidence of.
Brownshirt Wrote:So if it's not a choice, there is a sense of fatalism towards who has faith? As someone declares something which aligns with your experience how does this transcend to a word of god. You could read many prophet-like authors for the same result. This does not validate all their claims.
There's a lot in your question.
My understanding is fatalistic. In that there is a determined outcome for mankind. Both believer and nonbeliever. As you say, I could read many authors, yet I find unparalleled consistency in the bible, and more than that, a sense of purpose and a justice that dovetails perfectly with what I see of the world around me.
Especially as it pertains toward our lack of free will.
Brownshirt Wrote:What is then? The person's pre-determined faith?
No. A persons acceptance that Rom 10:9 is required.
Faith in and of itself is not enough.
Brownshirt Wrote:Is this too convenient to help rationalise your perspective? And why do you think so? Why not eternal punishment for everyone?
For the very reason that faith is not a choice. That clearly not everyone who has existed, nor are able to understand will even know of Jesus' existence. Moreover that in a book where not only are the Jews given requirements of the minutiae of their worship, and later in the NT, are Jesus' words recorded, is there ANY declaration, clear or otherwise, that Rom 10:9 must occur before an individuals death. In fact Php 2:9-11 declares otherwise. Furthermore 2Pe3:9 flat out states it. The word "willing" is not in the desirous sense, but the determined.
To me this is just, in a world where free will is limited.
Brownshirt Wrote:You reject the god that you believe in? You're an ignostic then, and if so, how does your belief in the bible align with this?

You misunderstand. I speak to what I believe is Gods motive. That a believer saying that we are created to solely worship is in error.

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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24-01-2014, 04:17 AM
RE: Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
(23-01-2014 05:07 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  One of these days, I'm going to get to the bottom of why the Calvinists (you said you were one earlier, right?) are the most agreeable theists on the forums.
It may be that there is an inherent sense that when one believes in determinism, then it is unjust to hold a nonbeliever to that which they cannot control.

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24-01-2014, 08:34 AM
RE: Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
(23-01-2014 05:07 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(23-01-2014 04:15 AM)Kestrel Wrote:  Again, my belief costs my fellow human beings nothing. The fair minded atheist will say, "eh. I don't believe in what you do." And it is left at that.

One of these days, I'm going to get to the bottom of why the Calvinists (you said you were one earlier, right?) are the most agreeable theists on the forums. That being said, I still reserve the right to have further objections to your actions if I think they can lead to unnecessary harm of your fellow sentient creatures, should that time ever occur. Until then, believe what you want until it starts adversely affecting other people. Thumbsup

It's because they really don't have to give a shit............right?
I mean if it's all settled who's chosen and who's not - Calvinist have absolutely no worries. Thumbsup

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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24-01-2014, 11:23 AM
RE: Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
(24-01-2014 08:34 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  It's because they really don't have to give a shit............right?
In a fashion...that's true.

WitchSabrina Wrote:I mean if it's all settled who's chosen and who's not - Calvinist have absolutely no worries. Thumbsup
Well that depends. As I understand Calvinism, which is admittedly slight, it seems a majority feel the the nonbeliever is damned or destroyed.
I couldn't possibly agree with this from a biblical point of view.

It is just another way to view god and their fellow man from a self based position. With the convenient escape hatch of " Don't blame me. I didn't make things this way."

It takes the idea of a god worthy of the title, and makes god...less.
Which is no god at all. IMO

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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24-01-2014, 11:46 AM
RE: Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
I have a question for all Calvinists. I was brought up a devout Bible believing Charismatic christian. (AOG would describe me well, even though I never was an official member of an Assemblies church, the churches I was a member of believed and worshipped in exactly the same way that AOG did.) I wanted to love and serve God all my life, and I begged him again and again to please tell me what he wanted me to do with my life, but never got an answer. I then decided to investigate just how it is that God communicates with humans (an audible voice? pen on paper without a human touching the pen? skywriting?), and after many years of praying, seeking and searching finally just gave it all up and became an atheist.

My question to you is how you can consider a god that treats me with such unfair and calloused disregard and disrespect to be worthy of your worship?



"If what you say is actually true, I would want to know it too. ... You can convince me, and if it is true I want you to convince me ... and I will thank you for convincing me."

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24-01-2014, 12:25 PM
RE: Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
(24-01-2014 11:23 AM)Kestrel Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 08:34 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  It's because they really don't have to give a shit............right?
In a fashion...that's true.

WitchSabrina Wrote:I mean if it's all settled who's chosen and who's not - Calvinist have absolutely no worries. Thumbsup
Well that depends. As I understand Calvinism, which is admittedly slight, it seems a majority feel the the nonbeliever is damned or destroyed.
I couldn't possibly agree with this from a biblical point of view.

It is just another way to view god and their fellow man from a self based position. With the convenient escape hatch of " Don't blame me. I didn't make things this way."

It takes the idea of a god worthy of the title, and makes god...less.
Which is no god at all. IMO



Groovy -
Then what would be your "view" of the non-believer?

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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24-01-2014, 01:51 PM
RE: Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
(23-01-2014 05:07 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(23-01-2014 04:15 AM)Kestrel Wrote:  Again, my belief costs my fellow human beings nothing. The fair minded atheist will say, "eh. I don't believe in what you do." And it is left at that.

One of these days, I'm going to get to the bottom of why the Calvinists (you said you were one earlier, right?) are the most agreeable theists on the forums. That being said, I still reserve the right to have further objections to your actions if I think they can lead to unnecessary harm of your fellow sentient creatures, should that time ever occur. Until then, believe what you want until it starts adversely affecting other people. Thumbsup

They can be agreeable because they have given up all responsibility for their beliefs.

They don't have to think about them, or argue about them. Que sera, sera. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-01-2014, 02:13 PM
RE: Refuting the Bible Answers (Again)
(24-01-2014 12:25 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Then what would be your "view" of the non-believer?
I have absolutely nothing against those who don't believe. My declared position is that believing isn't a choice. As I like to feel I'm a reasonable person, or at least strive to be, I'd be unreasonable to feel anything else.

Besides, it's also my belief that after the resurrection the current people who don't believe now will be in a far better position than most of those who currently are believers.

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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