Refuting "the problem of evil"
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23-08-2014, 08:40 AM
RE: Refuting "the problem of evil"
Quote:Phil: actual qualities present in atoms which aren't visible until the atoms are actually in a molecule process arrangement because those qualities are hidden behind an information* singularity
What ???
What qualities are hidden ?
What is the singularity ?
What is the information ?
Why are the qualities hidden ?
What DO YOU mean by qualities in your terminology ?

Thanks Chas for going through some of this - I just summed it up as gibberish.

Do you mean water has a quality of "wetness" and this is hidden as information ?
I will let you explain.

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23-08-2014, 08:54 AM (This post was last modified: 23-08-2014 08:58 AM by Baruch.)
RE: Refuting "the problem of evil"
(23-08-2014 08:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-08-2014 08:07 AM)phil.a Wrote:  Baruch:

OK thanks for your comments, although it seems to me your refutation conflates qualities (what we have actually been talking about in this topic, e.g. the "qualities" of water may not be reduced to the "qualities" of the constituent atoms) with quantities (e.g. the conservation of energy regarding the actual emergence event, where obviously energy is transferred).

I am not saying that energy is not transferred when emergence occurs (clearly it is), rather I am giving a description of how there are actual qualities present in atoms which aren't visible until the atoms are actually in a molecule process arrangement because those qualities are hidden behind an information* singularity.

Phil

* Not quite the right word, but the best word I can think of right now.

And that is what I disagree with. Actually, all of those ideas.
  • energy transferred when emergence occurs?
    What energy? When does 'emergence occur'?
  • qualities present in atoms that aren't visible until ...
    How many qualities? One for every compound that is forms?
  • information singularity
    Undefined.
Quote:Chas:
energy transferred when emergence occurs?
What energy? When does 'emergence occur'?

Phil was sort of using my language when I brought in the energy from the environment issue as part of the combining atoms to form molecules.
He was saying that there is some sort of paradox and...
Quote: its a the qualities of water appear in the empty space "between" the H and O atoms (empty space is a Zero)
.
My point is actually quite trivial - that there is nothing created ex-nihilo, paradoxical or from any singularity but that the emergence process fits in perfectly within our understanding of thermodynamics & conservation of energy. I.e emergence of water from H & O requires energy transfer in this case as a exothermic reaction - not just H & O popping magically into H20
2H2 + O2 = 2H2O + ENERGY.(with some energy to trigger the reaction under room temperature such as from a spark) The "emergence" occurs once the covalent bonds and new molecule is produced.

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David Hume


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23-08-2014, 09:14 AM
RE: Refuting "the problem of evil"
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

"Evil" is not a magical thing. It is a bullshit superstitious word religion created.

In reality if we use "evil" in natural terms and not bullshit Superman vs Kriptonite terms, it means extremely severe physical and or psychological harm to others.

As I said earlier in this thread, our species has always displayed both cruelty and compassion.

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23-08-2014, 10:55 AM
RE: Refuting "the problem of evil"
(23-08-2014 03:14 AM)phil.a Wrote:  
(22-08-2014 09:02 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Yes, yes. It's a wonderful deepity. Congratulations. It's still meaningless.

False - it's facile.

This is high school stuff. You see "deepity" only because you are asleep and dreaming that you are talking to Deepak Chopra.

Unfortunately, in real life your body is sleep-talking to an actual person.

Me.

My name is Philip Anderson.

I invite you to wake up out of your Deepak Deepity Dream and get to know me?

Phil

I invite you to stuff your condescending incoherence as far up your ass as you can reach.

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23-08-2014, 01:00 PM
RE: Refuting "the problem of evil"
Quote: I am giving a description of how there are actual qualities present in atoms which aren't visible until the atoms are actually in a molecule process arrangement because those qualities are hidden behind an information singularity

The qualities come from the properties of the molecule as a whole. The molecule as a whole has different properties to the individual atoms.

Phil - Have you been reading "The Field: The Quest for the Secret Force of the Universe by Lynne McTaggart" ??? (she tends to use zero energy concepts in a very misplaced new agey wishy washy way._

If you have then this lady knows nothing of physics & completely incompetent at science.

(Her book on medicine may be termed "evil" but that's another story for another day...)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
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23-08-2014, 01:06 PM
RE: Refuting "the problem of evil"
(23-08-2014 10:55 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(23-08-2014 03:14 AM)phil.a Wrote:  False - it's facile.

This is high school stuff. You see "deepity" only because you are asleep and dreaming that you are talking to Deepak Chopra.

Unfortunately, in real life your body is sleep-talking to an actual person.

Me.

My name is Philip Anderson.

I invite you to wake up out of your Deepak Deepity Dream and get to know me?

Phil

I invite you to stuff your condescending incoherence as far up your ass as you can reach.

Incoherence's cannot be stuffed up an ass - that's incoherent. However incoherence can come out of a mouth. Not everything that comes out a mouth can be stuffed up an ass....and its not recommended to stuff a mouth with what comes out of an ass.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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23-08-2014, 05:52 PM
RE: Refuting "the problem of evil"
(23-08-2014 08:54 AM)Baruch Wrote:  
(23-08-2014 08:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  And that is what I disagree with. Actually, all of those ideas.
  • energy transferred when emergence occurs?
    What energy? When does 'emergence occur'?
  • qualities present in atoms that aren't visible until ...
    How many qualities? One for every compound that is forms?
  • information singularity
    Undefined.
Quote:Chas:
energy transferred when emergence occurs?
What energy? When does 'emergence occur'?

Phil was sort of using my language when I brought in the energy from the environment issue as part of the combining atoms to form molecules.
He was saying that there is some sort of paradox and...
Quote: its a the qualities of water appear in the empty space "between" the H and O atoms (empty space is a Zero)
.
My point is actually quite trivial - that there is nothing created ex-nihilo, paradoxical or from any singularity but that the emergence process fits in perfectly within our understanding of thermodynamics & conservation of energy. I.e emergence of water from H & O requires energy transfer in this case as a exothermic reaction - not just H & O popping magically into H20
2H2 + O2 = 2H2O + ENERGY.(with some energy to trigger the reaction under room temperature such as from a spark) The "emergence" occurs once the covalent bonds and new molecule is produced.

Sure, but that has little to do with the properties of water.
I assumed he was using this as support for his thesis, even though he completely misunderstood it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-08-2014, 05:54 PM
RE: Refuting "the problem of evil"
(23-08-2014 01:06 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
(23-08-2014 10:55 AM)cjlr Wrote:  I invite you to stuff your condescending incoherence as far up your ass as you can reach.

Incoherence's cannot be stuffed up an ass - that's incoherent. However incoherence can come out of a mouth. Not everything that comes out a mouth can be stuffed up an ass....and its not recommended to stuff a mouth with what comes out of an ass.

You're taking it out of context; it's a metaphor. Dodgy

Big Grin

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-08-2014, 07:27 PM
RE: Refuting "the problem of evil"
(23-08-2014 05:54 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-08-2014 01:06 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Incoherence's cannot be stuffed up an ass - that's incoherent. However incoherence can come out of a mouth. Not everything that comes out a mouth can be stuffed up an ass....and its not recommended to stuff a mouth with what comes out of an ass.

You're taking it out of context; it's a metaphor. Dodgy

Big Grin
You actually had to respond and tell me its a metaphor. Now that's worrying.
I tell people the bible or Quran is a metaphor and risk death.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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24-08-2014, 05:39 AM
RE: Refuting "the problem of evil"
Chas:

Thanks for having a look at that, It was interesting to learn how my words sounded from inside your perspective. It looks like there's little bits and pieces in there that made some sort of sense, but that for the most part it seems like my words were unintelligible and inconsistent with what you know.

The image that jumped to my mind about how my words sounded was rather like how it might sound if I got a MS Windows installation CD and attempted to play it in my audio CD player.

Re the reflecting back of your own ideas and beliefs that I did in a previous thread - I'd be interested to know how much of that I got right?

Also - can you offer me a similar reflection of my own perspective and beliefs as you see them?

Phil
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