Refuting "the problem of evil"
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18-08-2014, 05:38 PM
RE: Refuting "the problem of evil"
This 'god' of the ignorant only seems to handle the mundane.

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18-08-2014, 06:36 PM
RE: Refuting "the problem of evil"
So are we talking about common usage of evil (irrationally or callously cruel or harmful at the core)? Or are we talking about the supernatural definition of evil (demons, possessions, entities with nothing better to do than to cause harm, or evil as an entity itself that infects others)?

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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18-08-2014, 06:51 PM
RE: Refuting "the problem of evil"
Quote:'phil.a'
Are you telling me that you have had a direct personal experience of god, which you have deconstructed and found to be based on an erroneous pre-conception?

Yes

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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18-08-2014, 06:58 PM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2014 07:17 PM by Baruch.)
RE: Refuting "the problem of evil"
(18-08-2014 03:42 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(18-08-2014 12:29 AM)phil.a Wrote:  It's a good question, and I'd explain it using the differentiation that buddhists make between "pain" and "suffering" because it's another perspective on the same underlying phenomenon.

"Pain" is defined as the actual direct experience which occurs when someone (say) sticks a needle in my finger, whereas "suffering" is defined as the negative stories and beliefs my mind might create about the pain, e.g. perhaps I'll decide that the person "should not" have stuck a needle in my finger and get all angry about the fact it happened and have my whole day spoiled by feeling angry and thinking obsessively about how wrong and unjust it was that this person abused me in that way.

The buddhists say that pain is not optional in life, but suffering (the mind's relationship to the pain, e.g. all the psycological drama it might create around the situation) is optional. They also say that in real life, quite often the mind-created "suffering" is by far the most unsavoury aspect of the negative experience. Perhaps in the story above, I get angry about what has happened and punch the person who needled me, he then punches me back and breaks my nose, e.g. my reactivity to the situation leads to further actual pain.

To give an example of pain that did not involve "suffering" as defined above, the most emotionally painful experience I've had to endure happened a few years ago when my mum died. We were very close so it was a very painful and disturbing experience, but because she was quite old, and because I see death as just part of the natural order of things, at no point in the process did my mind go into reaction with what was happening and judge it as "wrong". So there was emotional pain, but there was no "suffering" because I was at peace with what was occurring, it was a challenge but it felt to be a proper and normal rite of passage for me.

On the one hand, whilst I would never have chosen the experience if I'd had the choice, on the other hand it was a very rich emotional experience which I feel has given me a much, much deeper appreciation for all life, including my own. So in retrospect I cannot really say it was a "bad" experience, even though it's true that I'd love so much to have my mother back.

Phil
I'm sorry, but that response seems like a massive cop out to me. When I say "suffering," I'm talking about conditions which are so painful that they drive those who suffer from them to suicide and conditions like this.

I absolutely agree Vosur.
Phil.a is sitting in his ivory tower with cop out gobbledigook.
The great designer God creates conditions like this:
(Harlequins Ichtheosis)
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...oh its just pain and not suffering.

We actually understand why this contrition exists and it is not due to any fallen angels, demons, possessions, sins - but straight forward mutations in the ABCA12 gene. This gene is important in the regulation of protein synthesis for the development of the skin layer - and in these cases create such horrific conditions.
....if there was a God then surely it is unworthy of worship, utterly cruel, incompetent and damn right malevolent. ...add to this the children that die from malaria every 45 seconds....hardly worthy of the analogy of having ones finger pricked with some pain and not suffering.

Making excuses for all the above by blaming sins or devils is just a sad, desperate & dysfunctional form of cognitive dissonance.
We live in a natural world and part of the package, the debris of evolution are these horrific cases.
I also like you case Vosur from the link about the brain tumors which affect personality showing that everything we consider uniquely human can disintegrate including all the "higher functions" people attribute to being spiritual, souls or spirit - just watch someone at the end stages of Alzheimer and you will know there is no soul whatsoever.

I actually treat people with PCNS Lymphoma (brain lymphoma's) and see the shocking decline which is a tangible experience of cruelty & suffering on an extreme level barely comprehensible - no Buddhist bullshit is going to make this go away. ....and as for Jesus & Grace, all I can say is Bollocks !
Excuse my limited Grammar and vocabulary, I'm sure Vosur can be more elegant in expressing the right language style for the transcendental crap preached to justify this suffering.
....and I can speak for Buddhist practices considering I studied and practice mindfulness meditations and the various esoteric ideas that go along with these systems.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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19-08-2014, 12:02 AM
RE: Refuting "the problem of evil"
(18-08-2014 05:05 PM)Vosur Wrote:  No, it's not always optional, and you would know that, had you read the second link I posted.

I have again looked at your link, can you please explain why suicide (or euthanasia) not optional in such a situation?

Quote: In any case, I don't see how any of that is relevant to the topic at hand.

It's relevant because ongoing 'suffering' occurs not due to the fact that consciousness is evil, it's due to the fact that there's a lack of consciousness (e.g. someone is in denial and not looking the truth in the eye).

Quote:How do you reconcile the existence of an omnibenevolent deity with the suffering I talked about earlier?

Can you please reflect back your understanding of this post? Just so I can see that we are on the same page?

Phil
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19-08-2014, 12:06 AM
RE: Refuting "the problem of evil"
(18-08-2014 06:36 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  So are we talking about common usage of evil (irrationally or callously cruel or harmful at the core)? Or are we talking about the supernatural definition of evil (demons, possessions, entities with nothing better to do than to cause harm, or evil as an entity itself that infects others)?

Let's stick with the first definition, I think everyone here would agree that there are no actual demons!

Phil
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19-08-2014, 12:07 AM
RE: Refuting "the problem of evil"
(18-08-2014 06:51 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
Quote:'phil.a'
Are you telling me that you have had a direct personal experience of god, which you have deconstructed and found to be based on an erroneous pre-conception?

Yes

Cool! Can you tell me the facts of what actually occurred?

Phil
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19-08-2014, 12:17 AM
RE: Refuting "the problem of evil"
(18-08-2014 06:58 PM)Baruch Wrote:  I absolutely agree Vosur.
Phil.a is sitting in his ivory tower with cop out gobbledigook.
The great designer God creates conditions like this:
(Harlequins Ichtheosis)
...oh its just pain and not suffering.

Actually it's probably neither - that baby does not look old enough to be reflectively self-aware.


Quote:....and I can speak for Buddhist practices considering I studied and practice mindfulness meditations and the various esoteric ideas that go along with these systems.

Interesting. So - have you had a Satori yet?

If you have - how did the world look?

Phil
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19-08-2014, 01:18 AM (This post was last modified: 19-08-2014 01:23 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Refuting "the problem of evil"
(19-08-2014 12:02 AM)phil.a Wrote:  I have again looked at your link, can you please explain why suicide (or euthanasia) not optional in such a situation?
There are those who are either a. physically incapable of committing suicide (e.g. paralysis) and/or b. unable to communicate the wish for euthanasia (e.g. conditions that cause severe neurodegeneration or paralysis).

None of the people who are in such circumstances have the option to end their suffering voluntarily.

(19-08-2014 12:02 AM)phil.a Wrote:  It's relevant because ongoing 'suffering' occurs not due to the fact that consciousness is evil, it's due to the fact that there's a lack of consciousness (e.g. someone is in denial and not looking the truth in the eye).
(19-08-2014 12:02 AM)phil.a Wrote:  Can you please reflect back your understanding of this post? Just so I can see that we are on the same page?
As far as I can tell, the problem here is that you continue to articulate your thoughts using a different definition of the word "suffering" and that's something I already pointed out in my response to your post about the Buddhist distinction between
"pain" and "suffering." As long as you do that, you cannot engage the criticism in this thread in a meaningful way. When you assert that ongoing suffering occurs due to denial, for instance, you are obviously not talking about physical pain, but about the negative feelings associated with it. In essence, we have been talking past each other so far because we are talking about two distinct phenomena.

Now that that misunderstanding has been cleared up, would you care to respond to the question I posed in response to your OP using the same definition I use?

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19-08-2014, 01:33 AM
RE: Refuting "the problem of evil"
Quote:
Quote:'Baruch'
I absolutely agree Vosur.
Phil.a is sitting in his ivory tower with cop out gobbledigook.
The great designer God creates conditions like this:
(Harlequins Ichtheosis)
...oh its just pain and not suffering.


Actually it's probably neither - that baby does not look old enough to be reflectively self-aware.

Phil - its comments like this that really justify my point above, these Harlequin babies do survive to the age where they can reflectively become self aware. Just proves your insensitivity, coldness, denialism, ad hoc hypothesizing, minimization and pseudo-rationalizations. If your not convinced by the suffering of Harlequin babies as some horrific disgraceful design of a deity then in my 15 years within medicine we can choose a few other 1000 examples.
Eg: The bone pains from Multiple Myeloma (prior to the introduction of biphosphanates), especially combined with central nervous system infiltration causing Leptomeningeal myelomatosis. Describing this torture literally has no language, because any descriptions such as "torture" are just shallow as bones begin to freeze & break in multiple places, renal function declines causing toxicity, mental ability to cope becomes futile - leaving just a ball of utter extreme savagery left behind that even the most barbaric human torturer couldn't conceive of.

....and your poor finger was pricked whilst doing some mindful meditation contemplating some peaceful gaps between your breath & how your finger suffering was pain.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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