Registered Deed of Title to Morality
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25-12-2014, 02:41 PM (This post was last modified: 25-12-2014 02:48 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Registered Deed of Title to Morality
(25-12-2014 02:37 PM)Gordon Wrote:  
(25-12-2014 02:31 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Wrong. Apes and even rats have been demonstrated to have it. References, or STFU.

References? [Image: wtf.gif] Look around you.

Rats? Apes? They only do for their offspring. And how in the hell would you verify that any action they were doing had a sense of guilt or fair play attached to it?

Exactly as I thought. You are totally unaware of any current research.
http://www.livescience.com/40404-bonobo-...pathy.html

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25-12-2014, 02:43 PM
RE: Registered Deed of Title to Morality
(25-12-2014 02:39 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-12-2014 02:22 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Sincere people disagree all the time about what is the "good". Fail.

Ah, you seem to misunderstand me. I'm not claiming that all religious people view the same exact things as moral and immoral, as good and bad, that their understanding of what is good is consistent in such a away.

But the quotes that I was providing, was to reveal that these religious thinkers believed that life has some sort of moral direction, that it was inservice to something higher. They perceived that life has some sort of moral arc, not that they perceived the full dimensions of this, but at the very least perceived as a glimpse.

But one commonality that seems to exists among various religious tradition and thinkers, in regards to this direction, is that it points towards things such as empathy, and unselfishness, in the direction of compassion and love.

No matter wherever else they disagree, they all seem to agree that human life is directed toward a a sense of compassionate life, even if these individuals were incapable of embodying the sense of life they perceived. Even if they acted and vouched for ways contrary to this direction elsewhere.

Ah yes. Some "religious thinkers" making claims. That does not help you in trying to demonstrate the CLAIM that morality is inherent AND originates from the gods.

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25-12-2014, 02:44 PM
RE: Registered Deed of Title to Morality
(25-12-2014 02:24 PM)Gordon Wrote:  
(25-12-2014 12:07 PM)Free Wrote:  In my opinion, all human morals stem from the ancient and inherent Ethic of Reciprocity, also known in theology as The Golden Rule.

1. One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.

2. One should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated.


There are only two things that all sentient life forms attempt to do;

1. Increase our pleasure.

2. Decrease our pain.


No matter what we do, it is impossible for any action we take to not serve one of the two listed above. These two listed above come from the most primal aspect all sentient life inherently has:

The Preservation of Self.

The preservation of self is like the "prime directive" of our sentient existence. It is at the root of all emotions as it is greatly influenced by the emotion of Fear. Fear is what compels us to preserve ourselves, and that preservation of self is accomplished by either increasing our pleasure, or decreasing our pain.

The Ethic Of Reciprocity resonates with all of us because each and every one of us inherently understands that we should not bring any harm to anyone that we would not want done to ourselves (decease our pain,) and since we inherently understand pleasure, we will do unto others those good things that we ourselves enjoy.

All true moral structure begins with the primal Preservation of Self, then is processed into either increasing pleasure or decreasing pain, then from there it gets manifested and externally displayed as the Ethic of Reciprocity.

Theism has no claim on morality, as the origin or all morality was within all sentient life long before the existence of theology. Therefore, "The Registered Deed of Title to Morality" is inherently human.

There is no ethic of reciprocity in nature. It's not found anywhere. It is a religious construct with human beings that goes against our nature. It certainly is not "inherent" in us, as you claim. Good Lord, even with the most oppressive laws constantly breathing down our necks, the courts are still full to the brim, both civil and criminal.

The Ethic of Reciprocity exists despite whether or not people make the choice to employ it.

It is inherent for the simple reason that our sense of Preserving the Self teaches us what is painful/pleasurable to ourselves, and thus what is painful/pleasurable to others.

The Ethic of Reciprocity finds its root in the primal sense of self preservation, and is not something constructed by religion or any kind of philosophy. We all inherently know that bringing pain to someone else is wrong, because we all understand what pain is. No one has to teach us about pain, nor does anyone need to teach us about pleasure.

The choice to employ the Ethic of Reciprocity lies within each of us, as its employment depends upon the circumstances of each individual. If employing the ethic of reciprocity brings one more pain than pleasure, then it will be trumped by the self interests of either decreasing our pain, or increasing our pleasure.

Since we are all inherently selfish, and incapable of committing a selfless act, then the employment or non employment of the ethic of reciprocity is always a selfish act.

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25-12-2014, 02:48 PM
RE: Registered Deed of Title to Morality
think about how you'd feel if 'X' happened to you, and then think about that happening to someone else

if you have no interest in the well being of others and don't care one bit about the consequences of your actions, then there is no reason to not hurt others

the only thing objective and universal here is that actions have outcomes and people tend to find certain outcomes more desirable than others

this really is all there is to it
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25-12-2014, 02:51 PM
RE: Registered Deed of Title to Morality
Although.....come to think of it.....I do like making the Baby Jesus Cry.
Oh well. Ok. I give up.

Blush

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25-12-2014, 03:08 PM
RE: Registered Deed of Title to Morality
(25-12-2014 02:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Ah yes. Some "religious thinkers" making claims. That does not help you in trying to demonstrate the CLAIM that morality is inherent AND originates from the gods.

I do believe morality is inherent, what that has to do with the existence of God I leave that question open.

If it's not inherent, than our moral views and perceptions are a product of the cultures and societies we find ourselves in, for those of us who have belonged to cultures seeped in the christian religion for several hundreds years, our moral frameworks are inheritors of this tradition, whether we like it or not.

I'm all ears for either of these positions, but the question is which one do folks here accept.
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25-12-2014, 03:12 PM
RE: Registered Deed of Title to Morality
(25-12-2014 03:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-12-2014 02:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Ah yes. Some "religious thinkers" making claims. That does not help you in trying to demonstrate the CLAIM that morality is inherent AND originates from the gods.

I do believe morality is inherent, what that has to do with the existence of God I leave that question open.

If it's not inherent, than our moral views and perceptions are a product of the cultures and societies we find ourselves in, for those of us who have belonged to cultures seeped in the christian religion for several hundreds years, our moral frameworks are inheritors of this tradition, whether we like it or not.

I'm all ears for either of these positions, but the question is which one do folks here accept.

Nothing is "either-or". Everything we think is dependent on what we grew up in, and learned.

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25-12-2014, 03:16 PM
RE: Registered Deed of Title to Morality
(25-12-2014 03:12 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Nothing is "either-or". Everything we think is dependent on what we grew up in, and learned.

I'll take this to be tacit agreement of "our moral views and perceptions are a product of the cultures and societies we find ourselves in, for those of us who have belonged to cultures seeped in the christian religion for several hundreds years, our moral frameworks are inheritors of this tradition, whether we like it or not."
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25-12-2014, 03:18 PM
RE: Registered Deed of Title to Morality
(25-12-2014 03:16 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-12-2014 03:12 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Nothing is "either-or". Everything we think is dependent on what we grew up in, and learned.

I'll take this to be tacit agreement of "our moral views and perceptions are a product of the cultures and societies we find ourselves in, for those of us who have belonged to cultures seeped in the christian religion for several hundreds years, our moral frameworks are inheritors of this tradition, whether we like it or not."

I would have to agree with that. However it does not mean a god is the origin of those values, The CULTURES were the origin, not the gods or the religions. The questions is "Where did the religion get the values ?"
The CULTURE.

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25-12-2014, 03:42 PM
RE: Registered Deed of Title to Morality
(25-12-2014 03:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  ... our moral views and perceptions are a product of the cultures and societies we find ourselves in, for those of us who have belonged to cultures seeped in ISIS religious values for several hundreds years, our moral frameworks are inheritors of this tradition, whether we like it or not.

I made a substitution that underscores the fundamental absurdity of your position.

Meanwhile, morality precedes the establishment of religion as a social governing force by tens of thousands of years. Religion did not invent morality, it appropriated it from long established social norms of behavior.

Which change, by the way. These norms are not permanent. This may come as a surprise to some minds out there, but man is a learning animal. It may take generations for a fresh insight to diffuse its way into a whole culture, working its way upstream against entrenched beliefs, but eventually what was once unthinkable becomes just another thread in the social tapestry, unthinkable to unravel.
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