Reincarnation.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
08-03-2012, 08:09 AM
RE: Reincarnation.
(08-03-2012 03:07 AM)Luminon Wrote:  This "energy body" or as I say, etheric, is measurable optically and electrically, though this is not a popular knowledge yet. It's a pity that even rational thinkers aren't familiar with it and have to resort to idle philosophies of energy.

Interesting. Got any places to send me to read about this?

Are you talking about what people refer to as "ghosts"?

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-03-2012, 11:54 AM
RE: Reincarnation.
(08-03-2012 08:09 AM)Dom Wrote:  Interesting. Got any places to send me to read about this?
Yeah, as a good beginning try the free e-book Our Invisible Bodies by Jay Alfred. I know the etheric body from everyday conscious use of it, but he can describe it in scientific terms. I think this work is unique, so far nobody had the guts to show on numerous parallels that this elusive 'dark matter' is here, now, biologically involved, and behaves in logical and predictable terms of plasma physics.

(08-03-2012 08:09 AM)Dom Wrote:  Are you talking about what people refer to as "ghosts"?
Theoretically, there might be some temporary overlap of these two, but ghosts can not be described in terms of etheric world only. Therefore no, I don't mean "ghosts", that would need something called "astral body".
Etheric body is mostly the business of the living and of the physical world.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-03-2012, 03:05 PM
RE: Reincarnation.
(08-03-2012 03:07 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(07-03-2012 07:14 PM)Dom Wrote:  I actually think that it is possible that the energy (I am talking about just energy) that is released from our bodies when we die may seek out new life.
So in a way, I think that it is possible that we are and will be "reincarnated".
However, I am only talking about energy, not consciousness or "souls" or whatever.
And, if this energy would seek out a new form of life, it would likley be as easily a new blade of grass growing outside the window.
Or it may mingle with the energy released by a bird that died and power a piglet. Probably doesn't make sense for that energy not to comingle with other life energies.
And it wouldn't have anything whatsoever to do with learning or earning a better life or whatever.
It would just be that the energy that once resided in our body now resides someplace else.
Until we define where that energy actually goes, it's as good a theory as any.

But during the course of our life we radiate more heat, infrared and biophoton emissions than in our death.

I will have a look - see, but I have a comment about the above.

I do not think that we know all the different types of energy. I think our knowledge is extremely limited by our senses and measuring instruments.I think we will discover a lot more about this as we go. You can't assume that the current state of science encompasses all there is.

I am not talking about heat, biophoton and infrared, although research taking measurements of these during the moment of death would be interesting. Hard to pull off though, not many would give permission to having researchers with instruments hovering there waiting for the moment. You'll never catch a sudden death to monitor because - well - it's sudden. And "natural" death can take from hours to weeks until the final moment. It is that moment that interests me...

Nowadays most people ship dying persons off to hospitals, and they do not witness death. It's a total disconnect. Used to be most people were allowed to die at home, where they are comfortable, surrounded by family. And everyone saw it. And no one could explain what they saw.

So the moment of death gave rise to all these religious fairy tales. Like most things people make up stories about, it has it's root in an unexplicable phenomenon, here the instantaneous disappearance of a power, of an energy.

Whether we have identified all forms of energy or not (I assume not, by far), we know energy is never static. It always wants to go someplace.

That is why I think it is possible that this energy travels on, co-mingles with like energy, and ends up powering something else.

Anyway, when I have some time I will look into your theory.

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-03-2012, 05:38 PM
RE: Reincarnation.
If reincartion were real/possible I don't think I'd enjoy it that much. From what I understand, your memory is wiped and you become a COMPLETELY new person. I like who I am and that;s not something I would like to loose. A Doctor Who style Regenration would be much better (although painful) as while you become a new man/woman you are still esstentially you. You may walk different, sound different and even act different but on the inside you've still got all your memories from the get go, you are still you.

«Είμα Ανθρώπου. Είμαι όλοι για μένα. Δεν υπάρχουν Θεοί».
Ωμέγα Γάμμα
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-03-2012, 05:37 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2012 05:40 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Reincarnation.
(08-03-2012 03:05 PM)Dom Wrote:  I will have a look - see, but I have a comment about the above.

I do not think that we know all the different types of energy. I think our knowledge is extremely limited by our senses and measuring instruments.I think we will discover a lot more about this as we go. You can't assume that the current state of science encompasses all there is.

I am not talking about heat, biophoton and infrared, although research taking measurements of these during the moment of death would be interesting. Hard to pull off though, not many would give permission to having researchers with instruments hovering there waiting for the moment. You'll never catch a sudden death to monitor because - well - it's sudden. And "natural" death can take from hours to weeks until the final moment. It is that moment that interests me...
I also think there are many other kinds of energy, but having studied this in depth, they're not that revolutionary. Theoretically, there could be about 3-4 more energies similar to electro-magnetism, derivable from weak nuclear force.

This paragraph will make a great demands on your open-mindedness. The point is, that even our good old forces like gravity or strong nuclear force seem to behave differently in different "dimensions". For example, what we know as gravity in our material world, may in a neighbouring dimension be literally a force of love, IOW, an indiscriminatory attractive force. That is, because if human being consists of multiple subtle bodies in subtle worlds, which supply our emotions, intellect, intuition and so on, then the same forces will act on these levels as forces of thought, ideals and feeling. In this way, even a "weather" of invisible cosmic rays may quite literally exert downright astrologic influences on us, of course interpreted by our subtle bodies.
On more down-to-earth level, people may influence each other by their "dark plasma" and "magnetic plasma" bodies, exchanging streams of charged particles. But to sensitive people it will feel like they exchange "good or bad energy vibes".

You know that "weighing of soul" experiment? It was done twice. In 1907 by MacDougal from Massachusetts, which was not a good science. The second time it was Dr. Becker Mertens from Dresden in 1988. I think he measured about 200 dying patients and accounted for all things like weight of breath and evaporation of moisture. His equipment was precise too - he measured reliably a sudden weight loss of 1/3k of an ounce, with error margin of 1/100k of an ounce.
My sources say this one experiment is legit and the lost weight isn't soul, it's the removal of etheric body, which is material and has weight.

(08-03-2012 03:05 PM)Dom Wrote:  Nowadays most people ship dying persons off to hospitals, and they do not witness death. It's a total disconnect. Used to be most people were allowed to die at home, where they are comfortable, surrounded by family. And everyone saw it. And no one could explain what they saw.

So the moment of death gave rise to all these religious fairy tales. Like most things people make up stories about, it has it's root in an unexplicable phenomenon, here the instantaneous disappearance of a power, of an energy.

Whether we have identified all forms of energy or not (I assume not, by far), we know energy is never static. It always wants to go someplace.

That is why I think it is possible that this energy travels on, co-mingles with like energy, and ends up powering something else.

Anyway, when I have some time I will look into your theory.
Yes please, look into my theory, I'd like to see your opinion.
You've got a point, certainly. I think it's called the natural cycle.


(08-03-2012 05:38 PM)Omega Gamma Wrote:  If reincartion were real/possible I don't think I'd enjoy it that much. From what I understand, your memory is wiped and you become a COMPLETELY new person. I like who I am and that;s not something I would like to loose. A Doctor Who style Regenration would be much better (although painful) as while you become a new man/woman you are still esstentially you. You may walk different, sound different and even act different but on the inside you've still got all your memories from the get go, you are still you.
I never watched Doctor Who, but reincarnation doesn't make you a completely new person. People repeat their previous stages of development, before achieving the full potential they had in previous lives.
Most of people just tries different things or does pretty much the same. People try to continue in their habits from previous lives, or they fall into opposite extreme, thinking it's better. Rarely they ever figure out the golden middle path. They pay old debts to their karmic debtors - or cash them up. Or make new ones.
Of course, most of that is unconscious, but a lot is going on and it can't be said we're new people. We're the same people, only with wiped memory, who undergo lesser or greater gradual changes. It's good to have a greater perspective, to look at life if maybe what's happening to us isn't reaping what we sow from previous lives, although we shouldn't take that to the extreme. People like Hinduists forget that they have free will too and even if they're born poor they don't have to stay poor.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2012, 10:45 PM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2012 11:28 PM by Phenakist.)
RE: Reincarnation.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2012, 11:50 PM
RE: Reincarnation.
(10-03-2012 05:37 AM)Luminon Wrote:  You know that "weighing of soul" experiment? It was done twice. In 1907 by MacDougal from Massachusetts, which was not a good science. The second time it was Dr. Becker Mertens from Dresden in 1988. I think he measured about 200 dying patients and accounted for all things like weight of breath and evaporation of moisture. His equipment was precise too - he measured reliably a sudden weight loss of 1/3k of an ounce, with error margin of 1/100k of an ounce.
My sources say this one experiment is legit and the lost weight isn't soul, it's the removal of etheric body, which is material and has weight.

You state you have a reliable source of information to give reasonable belief to that this is true, if so can I please have it as I have no source of how the experiment was conducted nor how reputable the scientist(s) was(were) during their measurements.

I question Jay Alfred's credibility from his writings. His style is link lots of studies, bamboozle you with interesting facts or studies (not necessarily accurate or representative ones) and assert that these studies or tests prove that his hypothesis is true.

He constantly refers to dark matter which I already have taken issue with as it proves nothing nor does it support his theory in any way, he constantly refers to the 1907 experiment that was highly flawed, as you stated, but he still considers it a well known ''fact'' that weight is lost upon death (completely ignoring the same ''doctor'' did this on animals including dogs which he stated lost no weight therefore had no soul) not that anyone could reproduce his results anyway.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-03-2012, 04:26 PM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2012 04:34 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Reincarnation.
(18-03-2012 10:45 PM)Phenakist Wrote:  Jay Alfred starts a logical fallacy after 5-6 pages worth of reading. He starts off very scientific quoting famous scientists who have plenty of research backing their data, although with some slight inconsistency ''We quickly realize that this invisible matter (dark matter) is composed of highly massive and energetic
super particles''. This statement is not necessarily true as these super particles are still purely hypothetical, but I let him go on that one.
You should, weakly interacting massive particles are the leading theory on dark matter and there was also a succesful detection of the "noise" they make.

(18-03-2012 10:45 PM)Phenakist Wrote:  He then continues to talk extensively on dark matter, how mysterious it is and how much of a scientific significance it is due to it making up 99% of the universe (I believe he combines both dark energy and dark matter into one figure on this, again i'll let him off)
Yeah, that's a blunder. He should be much more careful about the facts. But two pardons from a skeptic is really something, thanks! Wink

(18-03-2012 10:45 PM)Phenakist Wrote:  But this is where he derails into mysticism and magic. He then attributes this dark matter to ''Qi'' saying that Qi is equivilent to dark matter because dark matter is unknown and because it is unknown Qi needs to be researched and have equal footing to be discovered like dark matter.
This actually isn't mysticism, that's pretty much logical assumption. If we have a dark matter body, then it must have some kind of material exchange with the environment, probably similar to breathing. And if the planetary space is rich with concentrated dark matter sphere, then this sphere - together with streams of charged solar substance maintain the etheric body. We don't know exactly what is it made of, but it serves the same purpose as oxygenated water for the fish, a medium of life. Of course this dark matter sphere isn't just about us, it has to do with nature, atmospheric phenomena, static electric charge and maybe it even influences global and regional moods of mankind, due to etheric body's connection with nerve and endocrine system. It's a whole new cathegory of matter, that means many various phenomena.
No wonder there are traditions of people who through talented observation and experiment mapped the energy meridians and centers in the body. They even observed similar flows in the nature, environment and geologic formations. There is a body of evidence from many areas of nature, physics and culture for which this is an explanation.

(18-03-2012 10:45 PM)Phenakist Wrote:  One quote I want you to read that makes absolutely no sense is this ''Qi is a general term for energy in Mandarin. Prana and Kundalini have similar meanings in Hindu Metaphysics. They represent what the metaphysical literature calls subtle energy. Science has been unable to measure qi, prana or kundalini directly-just as it finds it difficult to measure dark matter or energy. Nevertheless, in certain inconclusive scientific experiments they have been measured
indirectly''


How can you say ''Science has been unable to measure qi, prana or kundalini directly...nevertheless, in certain inconclusive scientific experiments they have been measured indirectly''. In his own words he admits that science has disproved any form of ''qi'' or spiritual energy and the only evidence to support qi is inconclusive scientific studies in which by definition mean that are not evidence to support it at all!
I wouldn't call that disproving but indirect measurements. You can find some evidence in this topic, although this is a too large thing for science to swallow at once. We are dealing here with another cathegory of matter. The things people call "qi" or "prana" or this energy can be anything, one thing or many, only differently charged. For example, we don't normally notice the air around us, unless it is charged with some energy, when it's kinetic we call it wind, when it's lacking heat energy we call it frost and when there's too much of all these energies together, we call it Katrina or Ivan.

All these names are abstractions and umbrella terms. The scientists like James DeMeo or Miroslav Provod stumbled upon some phenomena of a large new cathegory of matter that touches many aspects of our world. And we know very little about it scientifically, but potentially very much from actual experience of our ancestors and currently living people. That creates confusion.

(18-03-2012 10:45 PM)Phenakist Wrote:  This guy is following circular logic, false premises and the 'god' of the gaps principle. I will concede I have not read all his book, indeed I stay away from reading pseudoscience so if you have references from his book that disprove his initial statements I'd be happy to read it, so long as you give me citation so I can look up the paragraphs myself.
It's like with evolution, there is not a single piece of evidence that alone proves evolution, but thousands are explained by it all together. And what was blasphemous Darwinism for believers of the Victorian era, so is Orgonomy for fierce skeptics of today, defending the public from the irrational New Age culture and faith healers. (plus the godless witchcraft accusation from people of faith still lasts)

Alfred's work is largely a popularization, plus he does a good job of explaining lots of things in terms of plasma and magnetic plasma physics. The subtle world behaves like full of diffuse, energetic, electrically charged, structured, hot, luminous substance, that is plasma, and I suppose it doesn't matter much what the material basis is, as long as this "dark" matter interacts only weakly and so we don't get instantly burnt, like in spontaneous human combustion. The message is, it's not mystical or unexplainable and it makes sense. Maybe it's just a too big idea to take in all at once. That dark matter somehow interacts with us here and now and these are its effects to which we were subject all along.

Contrary to popular belief (even among proponents) subtle energies can be measured, directly or indirectly, depends how you look at it. Direct methods involve things like polycontrast interference photography (no Kirlian or biofeedback), electric current field dampening or even an orgone-charged neutron counter. Indirect methods usually focus on the effect of subtle energies on living organisms. A sensitive or trained guy like me can report this subjectively (ASTSE, see below) or be neurologically measured. There are also orgone field effects on seeds and plants, changes of temperature (the famous Reich-Einstein experiment revisited) and even the Michelson-Morley experiment revisited. Not counting all the strange phenomena that go on inside the orgone accumulator, mostly having to do with characteristic blue glow of orgone and its effects on people, liquid water, plants, metals, etc. Most of these things I already mentioned in the thread up there.

What you can do right now is to take a look into a journal on subtle energies, maybe the journal style will fit you better. That issue actually publishes JDM's experiments in detail! But try to start with the first article and continue with the third, on ASTSE (alleged sensitivity to subtle energy). I consider that a major find, I haven't yet found any text on people like me, with inborn ASTSE. All that is highly interesting, even from a psychologic point of view. I didn't yet have a time to read through it all, but I'm going to. You can also find more issues of the Subtle Energies & Energy Medicine journal here.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-03-2012, 05:57 PM
RE: Reincarnation.
being alive again and staying dead forever are both good options for me, though I live my life as though I was going to be alive again. Because honestly I would want to live in a better world than it is now if I were going to be living in it AGAIN! I also want far superior education for everyone, less people around the world, a justice system not a legal system. Yes even if I were to be dead forever I would want to live as though I would continue living in this world. Though to be perfectly honest I think life and death is like turning a light bulb on and off for all eternity. The mechanism to make the light bulb work, our brain.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-03-2012, 06:58 PM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2012 07:25 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Reincarnation.
Guess I just can't appreciate why anyone would want to go through this again? Kinda feels like qualifying exams or prelims, if I have to repeat them then I'm not getting something. ... I mean what if you were not allowed to just cease to be until you've passed your qualifying exams? That feels like what most reincarnationists are suggesting. But I passed the qualifying exams as soon as I was, just by virtue of being.

Breathing - it's more art than science.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread: Author Replies: Views: Last Post
  Past Lives and Reincarnation Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver 19 684 12-01-2014 08:43 PM
Last Post: Taqiyya Mockingbird
Forum Jump: