Rejection of a claim
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03-02-2018, 09:47 AM
RE: Rejection of a claim
I shut the whole thing down pretty quickly with most theists by asking:

1) What is a god?

2) Why should I care if there is one?

I generally get no either to either question. If they don't know what it is they believe in or why it matters, that's pretty much end of conversation.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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03-02-2018, 02:23 PM
RE: Rejection of a claim
G'day mate, and welcome to the forums. Smile

(03-02-2018 12:18 AM)Zink Wrote:  ...The theist countered by saying “rejecting a claim is itself a claim. You literally claimed that Christianity did not meet its burden of proof”. This threw the atheist off, it threw me off too.

Logically, is this possible? Is rejecting a claim, making a claim? I guess if I were to say “I reject your claim of a god due to lack of evidence”, and the theist countered that I was making a claim by saying that, what would be a good response?

You'll find a lot of theists will play the semantics or syntactical game as a subterfuge for lacking a reasoned argument. One option is to tell them to fuck off, and just walk away.

At any rate, the question "what makes atheism true?" is a nonsensical one. Atheism is nothing more or less than a singular, personal state of mind, like anger or happiness, or optimism or grief.
And like them, atheism just is. We don't have to justify it to any third party.

If you want to play the theists' silly games, just tell them that you're not making any "claims" of your own before hearing their justification of their claim that God exists. Which is a fair proposition.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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03-02-2018, 04:37 PM
RE: Rejection of a claim
(03-02-2018 08:12 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Please explain how to defend the *claim* that you dont accept someone elses claim.

The claim you're making in such a case is that you have considered their assertion and decided that it doesn't hold up. Then you can explain why you think it doesn't hold up.
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03-02-2018, 05:27 PM
RE: Rejection of a claim
(03-02-2018 04:37 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  
(03-02-2018 08:12 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Please explain how to defend the *claim* that you dont accept someone elses claim.

The claim you're making in such a case is that you have considered their assertion and decided that it doesn't hold up. Then you can explain why you think it doesn't hold up.
It didnt meet my standard of evidence. What is there to explain?

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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03-02-2018, 05:42 PM
RE: Rejection of a claim
(03-02-2018 05:27 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(03-02-2018 04:37 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  The claim you're making in such a case is that you have considered their assertion and decided that it doesn't hold up. Then you can explain why you think it doesn't hold up.
It didnt meet my standard of evidence. What is there to explain?

You can explain what your standard of evidence is, and why the claim doesn't meet it.
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03-02-2018, 05:49 PM
RE: Rejection of a claim
(03-02-2018 04:37 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  The claim you're making in such a case is that you have considered their assertion and decided that it doesn't hold up. Then you can explain why you think it doesn't hold up.

Joe: "There's a Martian base on the far side of the moon".
Flo: "I don't know if that's true or not, but I don't believe it".

What claim is Flo making?

No gods necessary.
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03-02-2018, 05:59 PM
RE: Rejection of a claim
(03-02-2018 05:49 PM)brunumb Wrote:  
(03-02-2018 04:37 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  The claim you're making in such a case is that you have considered their assertion and decided that it doesn't hold up. Then you can explain why you think it doesn't hold up.

Joe: "There's a Martian base on the far side of the moon".
Flo: "I don't know if that's true or not, but I don't believe it".

What claim is Flo making?

"I claim I know what kind of evidence we would need to believe in a Martian base.

I claim we lack this evidence.

Since we lack such evidence, I claim that we have no reason to believe."
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03-02-2018, 06:03 PM
RE: Rejection of a claim
(03-02-2018 05:59 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  "I claim I know what kind of evidence we would need to believe in a Martian base.

I claim we lack this evidence.

Since we lack such evidence, I claim that we have no reason to believe."

No,
no, and
no.

Flo made no such claims.

No gods necessary.
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03-02-2018, 06:09 PM
RE: Rejection of a claim
(03-02-2018 06:03 PM)brunumb Wrote:  
(03-02-2018 05:59 PM)Belaqua Wrote:  "I claim I know what kind of evidence we would need to believe in a Martian base.

I claim we lack this evidence.

Since we lack such evidence, I claim that we have no reason to believe."

No,
no, and
no.

Flo made no such claims.

Then what reasons does she have to reject the claim?

Or are you using the word "believe" in some nonstandard way? Usually "I believe it" equals "I hold it to be true."
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03-02-2018, 06:24 PM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2018 07:00 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Rejection of a claim
Saying that one sees no evidence presented that supports a primary claim, says nothing about other evidence, nor does it say anything about other possible evidence, nor is it making a counter-claim. All is says, is "here before me is nothing that convinces me ..... and here is why I do not find it convincing" ..... no claim there. I could believe in a god, and not find ID as evidence for one.
Two theists can be arguing about whether a god exists, one of them being a proponent of intelligent design. Evaluating evidence as good or bad, in support of a claim, is not necessarily claiming anything. All it's doing is commenting on the quality of the evidence.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
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